Some are. Though player power is capable of exceeding them very quickly and by endgame all but a handful become irrelevant.
Again, if builds weren’t the point… Why did Crate spend so much time with all these items, skills, and masteries? The Souls game get by on far less options, and look how popular they are, and so challenging, too. That’s because the Souls game are about your skill at playing, not your skill at building.
Is there a reason we can’t have both? For example regardless of the build archetype I play my approach to combat generally stays the same. Having a greater number of enemies that are strong against certain build types would help to alleviate this. It obviously doesn’t need to be to the extent of dark souls, but is having some dynamic combat outside of bosses that unreasonable?
[QUOTE=Nine;506596
Is there a reason we can’t have both? For example regardless of the build archetype I play my approach to combat generally stays the same. Having a greater number of enemies that are strong against certain build types would help to alleviate this. It obviously doesn’t need to be to the extent of dark souls, but is having some dynamic combat outside of bosses that unreasonable?[/QUOTE]
YES, there IS a reason.
Let’s say you want to make a ranged enemy. Okay, simple enough. Classic type, right? Well, what you can make them do? You can make them:
Shoot you.
Shoot you and run away, repeat as needed.
Throw something and shoot you.
Use some kind of self-buff and shoot you.
… And that’s about it. Not a lot of diversity available in the first place. That’s not even taking into consideration the time and effort required to do that. But guess what? Crate already put those into the game. We have enemies that do exactly that. The only thing left to differ at that point is the type of damage, and that hardly diversifies the fight mechanically. Functionally, the enemies’ damage type doesn’t matter to you if your resists are up, and it doesn’t change your playstyle. You treat an Aether ranged enemy the same as you treat a Kymon’s ranged enemy, for example… Regardless of the differing damage types.
What exactly do you think Crate can add to make this dynamic? More damage or differing damage isn’t going to do it. What big options do you think they’ve missed, exactly? Hell, they already went further than many games because GD offers ground effects and mines that can be caused by your enemies. There’s only so much you can reasonably do with X kind of enemy before you run out of options that keep them AS X kind of enemy. Also, keep in mind… While doing this diversifying, you ALSO have to make sure that trash mobs look and feel like less of a threat than heroes, and heroes less than bosses, so that heroes and bosses still feel like an upgrade. So you can hardly have anything but a boss casting something like Devastation, for example… Even though that would still be, “Throw something and shoot your.” Ends up limiting your options even further.
That’s a rather simplistic way of looking at it. Just off the top of my head you could for instance have an enemy that has a really powerful attack when you are at long range or has a shield effect that stops projectiles unless you are within close range.
I can’t say as this game has had any such proximity effect on attacks as of yet… You sure this game can handle it?
As for your second suggestion… POE had Proximity Shields, and you know what? All they did was piss everybody off, because they were specifically made to screw over ONE type of builds. Melee players had the same complaints about Volatiles… Because they ONLY screwed over Melee builds. Targeting a build archetype ticks people off, and means nothing to people who don’t play that archetype. It’s a bad move.
EDIT: Also, I apologize for getting heated. I get irked when people ask for things in a game that they can’t reasonably get. The amount of time and effort it would take to change the enemies in this game isn’t small, nor are reasonable options for enemy diversity being skipped over in this game. Crate’s actually gone above and beyond… Yet this guy wants MORE, in a game that isn’t focusing on this.
You most certainly can diversify most enemies. I don’t see what you mean either about it having no returns when it’s completely the opposite. There’s nothing but returns from having enemies be more unique in what they do.
As for the part about not being able to have enemies that only specifically threaten certain builds…what? Just what? Are you honestly trying to imply that you can’t have enemies that specifically take advantage of certain class weaknesses? Because that’s just absurd and flat out wrong if that’s the case. The most obvious and straightforward example that immediately comes to mind would be a slow moving, lumbering beast that hits extremely hard in melee. A ranger / mage would have the abilities to take it out from a distance, but a melee would have to tank the blows, thus by default it would be more dangerous for a melee character. Now if it was a slow lumbering beast that could stun/root you in place and then shadow step towards you and still deal massive melee damage? Then that would be something that would pose a threat to all classes. Alternatively, having a hoard of creatures that can Blitz + stun you en masse , while problematic for all builds that would be much more dangerous for low armor low health builds which would have difficulties surviving through the burst in comparison to a heavily armored + high health character. This is only scratching the surface too and other ARPGs already have this as a thing. It’s not something that should be left out, it is an integral part to making the game as a whole more enjoyable to play rather than just having a few endgame bosses be challenging with the rest of your encounters being dull and routine.
Character building is one aspect of the game. If that’s all that matters, then you might as well just make your build on Grimcalc then not even bother playing. Or just cheat your way to the last 4 bosses if that’s all that matters.
You need to remember that you play through game 3 times per character. The base game needs to be solid and varied for more than just the last 5% of the game.
You CAN do it, but it pisses off the people who prefer that kind of play, and means nothing to the rest. It’s a bad PR move. POE isn’t the only game that’s done it, I’ve seen six do it… And each time, it’s done nothing but anger people. No value in doing something you know will tick people off, that’s just bad business.
Character building is the POINT of the game. The rest of the game, sans character building… Is just an RPG. There’s reasonably no difference at that point, if they cut down on the vast amount of build and gearing options. The thing that makes it an ARPG is the character diversity and options.
If you’d like to skip ahead, go for it. It’s a SP, moddable game… You’re welcome to. I don’t choose to do so.
With the absurd outcry there’s been when enemies got a marginal increase to their OA a few patches back I don’t think it would be a good idea to just do a blanket increase in difficulty, only make it optional.
A veteran mode for Ultimate would really be a very welcome addition. If you know what you’re doing it takes heavy mistakes or a very poor build to die to anything other than a handful of bosses. Unless they have reflects or resistance reduction (or heavy cc but that can be made irrelevant with resists anyway) it doesn’t even matter what regular mobs are supposed to be doing they just get dispatched all the same.
Crucible is a god-send in that regard. Unless you send a cd-based Siegebreaker caster in there it’s almost always entertaining even if some rolls feel straight-out impossible to deal with depending on the build.
It would probably require new tech. I can’t say for certain if such a thing is possible right now.
As for your second suggestion… POE had Proximity Shields, and you know what? All they did was piss everybody off, because they were specifically made to screw over ONE type of builds. Melee players had the same complaints about Volatiles… Because they ONLY screwed over Melee builds. Targeting a build archetype ticks people off, and means nothing to people who don’t play that archetype. It’s a bad move.
Keep in mind that I’m merely making offhand suggestions. Even if they did annoy some people, to an extent I think it’s good to have a few enemies that give players a slight feeling of dread to fight against. I disagree that it would be bad. For it to be bad it would have to be overly punishing, which is generally the problem that PoE has had at least when I used to play it.
EDIT: Also, I apologize for getting heated. I get irked when people ask for things in a game that they can’t reasonably get. The amount of time and effort it would take to change the enemies in this game isn’t small, nor are reasonable options for enemy diversity being skipped over in this game. Crate’s actually gone above and beyond… Yet this guy wants MORE, in a game that isn’t focusing on this.
I view these discussions as thought experiments more than anything. Rarely will they result in significant change because at the end of the day the devs are trying to make a product with market appeal, so making niche changes isn’t really all that profitable compared to the work required. I think asking for more is perfectly reasonable though. They are merely suggestions after all and maybe something in this thread can inspire some change that can satisfy both sides of the argument.
See one again, I’m not seeing where you’re coming from. Who in their right mind is getting pissed off by the thought of enemies not being carbon copies of each other minus their looks?
I’ve not heard a solid argument as to why enemies behaving in a more unique fashion is actually bad because such a thing does not exist. There’s absolutely no negative sides. None.
Also character building is most certainly not the sole point of the game. It’s one of the main factors of the game but character building alone is worthless when you have nothing to do with said character.
Again, I don’t want to go through the game another 3 times just to see my character fight a handful of bosses. That is poor design, plain and simple. There needs to be some challenge along the way otherwise what’s the point?
The issue isn’t “enemies not being carbon copies.” It’s specifically in an enemy having a function that targets one specific build archetype. It annoys those people to have it around, and it’s irrelevant to every other build. That is the issue, NOT enemy diversity.
I agree that you need something to DO with your character. That’s why, as I have said, there are enemies as a “backdrop”. But the enemies themselves are hardly the focus of the game. It’s very clear to see that far more effort has been put into customizing your character rather than customizing your enemies… And that’s OK in my book. Games always focus on doing one thing well. Crate has done very well at offering build options and styles galore. They focused there, and they succeeded. To again use the Souls games as an example… They focused on unique enemy encounters, and succeeded. Yet the Souls games have far less diversity of gameplay, and GD has far less enemy diversity. That’s as it should be, IMO.
If we can get more enemy diversity (Without targeting build types)… I’m all for it. But I have yet to hear solid options for what Crate can even add to the game.
What do you all think the game currently supports for enemy variety… That Crate isn’t already USING?
It depends on the degree of behavior. Like if you had a fast ranged enemy that basically did nothing but run away and shoot you, that would be negative because it’s just a game of cat and mouse. You could have an enemy initiates combat by using a fast super high damage gap-closer that nearly kills you before you even realize what happened. Those would be examples of behaviors that are either annoying for the sake of annoying or just feel outright unfair.
Having a group of enemies be mildly challenging for certain builds is annoying? The point of that would be so that an area that you breezed through on a previous build could be better appreciated on the build that has some issues in said area.
It makes places more memorable, makes them be talked about more and just encourages discussion in general.
I personally find it more annoying having every enemy and area I go to be trivial.
Like why would I care about Trog enemies for example and the Mountain Deeps area (even had to look up what the fuck this place was called because I couldn’t remember the name of it despite having been there a few times) when there’s nothing to really discuss about it?
Now if those Trogs were more interesting, let’s say the Blood Mages tactic got switched up a bit to instead use Curse of Weakness on you as well as a suped-up Bloody Pox that it not only uses on you, but also imagine it going one step further and casting it on other enemies with the Fevered Rage modifier. That would be pretty spicy and memorable.
Doesn’t really matter though, since I knew when I made this thread that nothing will be done about giving enemies some much needed changes that actually separate them from one another. The most likely change from what I wrote will be Veteran mode added to Elite and Ultimate if anything, since that’s been a requested thing for a long time now.
It still saddens me greatly though, since the expansion will probably only get one play out of me, even if they do add veteran mode to those higher difficulties because my issues with enemies feeling to similar will remain, and as you pointed out it’s a lot of work to go through the enemy list and updating them with new AI and abilities, but this is an expansion and if there was anytime to do it, it would be then.
My hope at this point is that some hero modder takes up the huge task of doing this, and that Crate themselves just add Veteran mode to the other difficulties.
I still want fucking Darius to be changed completely though, he’s such a shit boss that I’m getting mad just thinking about him. God I hate chapter 2 in this game so much.
different people want different difficulties, there are enough people who think it is too hard
Now I’m going to avoid comparing the game with PoE for the most part, but there’s one thing PoE does right that I feel really drives in the point I’m trying to make and that’s making enemy types feel unique. The type of danger they pose to the player is different for each enemy type.
it has been some time since I played PoE, but when I did, trash mobs there were also just trash mobs, no different from what you find in GD (and complain about…)
Want a example of a good enemy type that is already in Grim Dawn? The Shambler. I fucking love these things so much and wish there were more like it, because these things will straight up kill you if you deal with them wrong.
and yet they pretty much never actually do kill me, what kills my is random stuff, could be anyone really, it just is rare and requires me making a mistake or be too reckless
I would not mind more diversification of mobs, but I do not think they generally should be more difficult
You’re asking for something that it’s simply not reasonable to give you. The logistics of revamping all these enemies, and somehow making them each diverse and interesting… It’s just not feasible. Even if I somehow believed it was at all possible to make ALL of these enemies unique… The time and money that would have to be put into it would be on par with a second expansion, and Crate isn’t even done with their first expansion yet. It’s just not happening, and as you said… You knew in advance it wasn’t.
Whether or not it is feasible is irrelevant, that is for Crate to decide. Just because it probably isn’t going to happen doesn’t mean he shouldn’t ask or offer suggestions. Seriously, this idea of don’t suggest something unless it is 100% doable is absurd. Giving feedback should not be discouraged, even if you don’t necessarily agree with the conclusion of said feedback.
I’m not saying that. I’m saying, don’t suggest something unless you actually think you can get it. If you don’t think A) The Devs CAN do it, and B) You can convince the Devs TO do it… Why make the suggestion? If you don’t think it’s going to go anywhere, why even bother?
… That doesn’t honestly make a lot of sense to me, especially in this case. Suggesting enemy diversity changes, that you don’t expect to get… To inspire what? Enemy diversity changes? The suggestion doesn’t relate to much else. Perhaps that might apply to an item suggestion, or some skill idea… Not so much here, I think.
Also, saying one thing to get another? Not really sure that’s a good idea. And you still wouldn’t be getting your suggestion.
You look at things far too simplistically. We don’t exist in an all or nothing world. It’s possible to meet a suggestion half way and make some small changes that don’t take a lot of time or take a suggestion into consideration when working on a new enemy for example. Tons of my suggestions have made it into the game, but rarely in the exact way I asked. Usually it is somewhere between what it originally was and what I requested and that’s okay.
Untrue. I too haven’t played PoE for a very long time, but back then Rhoa, Flicker Spiders and Snakes used to constantly end players lives in PoE. There would be threads about them all the time.
These days, despite not being able to confirm it (since again, I don’t play PoE), Devourers and Porcupine packs seem to get a lot of time in the spotlight for killing people.