Not upset and appreciate you not telling what I think thanks.
I don’t think I can make my point any clearer. Either way I have said my piece.
Yeah i honestly don’t get it. These people are afraid of their builds getting nerfed in single player game. I would understand it if it was mp game so people could remain ahead of other players in leaderboards or some sht like that. Even though it is sp game mostly, better sense of balance shouldn’t hurt anyone.
I think sharing is caring, and not all of us actually like to dedicate themselves to creating complex builds from scratch. Personally i’ve always enjoyed the leveling/gearing part way more than theorycrafting itself.
Ah much i don’t like poe as a game, at least the community is very generous in terms of sharing their experience in form of builds and whatever guides. Yeah there are lot of great people in gd sharing things like this but i also know what Maxzero said is more or less true.
Lot of people are probably gonna get triggered by this but hey, no hard feelings?
This is actually a very good point. The ONLY reason I even posted up a build so quickly was because I knew it was going to be crowd pleaser and I wanted to do everything I could to support GD xpac interest/sales (because I love the game and it’s community and I loved D2 necro and I WANT ANOTHER XPAC). Certainly not for some ego trip which is bad form in itself but also foolish considering there’s always somebody out there better than you at anything you care to pride yourself on.
You can’t really hold a grudge against the Praetorians/testers over elitism when you consider that those folks have hundreds of hours of knowledge regarding content that no one else has played because NOTHING ruins a good game like skipping the mechanics/content exploration. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s at least an informal agreement of some kind amongst them regarding new content, if not a formal one.
Also, it’s an intrinsically single player game. Knowing something others do not provides no competitive edge.
This. I was stunned the first time I read DaShivs Iskandra/Drac guides. It was apparent how much thought and time went into them but I appreciated the obvious care and craft that went into other guides before his. Even then, I didn’t have a true appreciation for what it takes to produce a good one (lesson of doing to appreciate). It’s just so much more effort than you might imagine unless you attempt it yourself and I won’t ever hold it against a person to not produce something unless they consider it up to their own standards.
Another solid point. I won’t say more on it other than it really does boil down to player base enjoyment (amateur AND aficionado). That’s really what it’s all about.
And Ryzel is %100 percent correct. I only ever pestered Ceno/DaShiv via PM when it comes to the high muckitymucks and they were both extremely affable. I wish I could have gotten a little more from DaShiv but I certainly understand why I didn’t (he gets a bazillion requests for advice/consult and his time is best maximized by producing a guide which answers all those questions for EVERYBODY instead of just the people that PM him).
Anyway, that’s my .02, Maxzero. I’m not picking sides or calling you out or saying you’re wrong, I just wanted to say, there’s “reasons” and they aren’t nefarious but rather mundane.
You guys are derailing the thread btw 
The reasons are totally super nefarious, I’m cereal
#AlGoreForPresident
Got my PowBam acting up!
It’s pretty formal: we ask them not to discuss it. And they remain Praetorians because they respect our wishes.
Another solid point. I won’t say more on it other than it really does boil down to player base enjoyment (amateur AND aficionado). That’s really what it’s all about.
And Ryzel is %100 percent correct. I only ever pestered Ceno/DaShiv via PM when it comes to the high muckitymucks and they were both extremely affable. I wish I could have gotten a little more from DaShiv but I certainly understand why I didn’t (he gets a bazillion requests for advice/consult and his time is best maximized by producing a guide which answers all those questions for EVERYBODY instead of just the people that PM him).
Anyway, that’s my .02, Maxzero. I’m not picking sides or calling you out or saying you’re wrong, I just wanted to say, there’s “reasons” and they aren’t nefarious but rather mundane.[/QUOTE]
There are two ways the community can approach this particular topic…
- Build creators can consider us the enemy and keep everything close to the vest. End result is that we may get around to addressing what they discovered anyway, but we may not change it in a way that pleases them or end up hurting their build more because we did not see their angle on a particular change. There’s a lot of ways to make a character.
There have certainly been a few egos on the forums over the years that think enough of themselves that we target them and their builds specifically. It’s a game, kids, and 99% of our time is spent working on the next thing, not discussing what ___ is gonna do next!
- Build creators accept that relative (not absolute) game balance is ideal for a healthy game and for build variety and work with us to ultimately make the game better for everyone.
These are examples of a healthy debate on the topic of balance that ultimately aim to improve the game for everybody, at all levels of play.
At the end of the day, there’s thousands of you and a handful of us (actually, just 2 people that even handle balancing, though other devs may offer input on particular skills/specs). We can work together, or you can accept whatever fate we send down upon you. 
And as for those that keep their builds to themselves…if a tree falls in the woods and nobody’s around to hear it…does anybody give a fuck? It’s a singleplayer game, you do you. Most players don’t ever see a forum anyway and 97% of players don’t ever see the cutting-edge gameplay you thrive in.
It only becomes a problem when somebody feels this way about builds, and then goes on the forum to complain about how limited Grim Dawn build variety is, though we haven’t had an issue with that in a long time.
This thread really went in a new direction though, so it may be worth splitting this off into two topics… (EDIT: And…split it)
I’ll respect the heck out your wishes, Zantai! I’m ready for my Praetorian armor!
EDIT: Pretty much agree with the rest of it. I don’t mind balance as long as certain things retain a flavor at the end of the day (like conjurer summoner being a little less squishy but a little less DPS than cabalist summoner for instance, which I only bring up because I play mostly pet, or spellbreaker being an assassin nuke that can blow themselves up if they aren’t always careful, etc, etc.)
The truth is, if anybody wanted to buff their ego, they WOULD release a nerfworthy secret, not hold it close to the vest (tree falling in the woods example)
The problem i personally feel is that when an OP build is shared it adds to the problem of homogeneity. A lot of then follow that “one build” because it can do “xxxx” boss when the player is taking a piss. I get it people are lazy and would naturally flock to these type of builds but only posting this stuff might take the attention away from “exotic” builds.
I don’t prefer to post anything OP (heck I don’t even tease any info about them), sure it hurts balancing a bit when those concepts eventually find their way through some other person.
But while OP things need to be nerfed I also believe that “out-of-the-box/whacko” build should be supported. So I prefer posting this stuff to highlight that weird concepts can use some support from the game itself, this imo adds to the real build diversity.
Not sure how helpful/unhelpful I am with that attitude.
Are you for real? That thread is one of the most derailed threads on the entire forum :eek:
A good portion of that thread is with few players unnecessarily accusing an experienced player due to miscommunication b/w the two parties
Oh come on, You only want one thing that is for them to make Revenant skelies scale with player bonuses again, don’t you?
True
Well, I will use this thread to thank all “Top Builders” for their input. I started Grim Dawn this summer as total noob and asked questions with a really terrible build and all answers were helpful and not arrogant.
I´m reading a lot of different builds though I will never play them but only with that I will understand the mechanism behind all these things.
And, @ Chthon:
You owe me an answer PM to my build. 
Must’ve missed the party :undecided:
Yeah, sorry about that. Kinda slipped my mind
Hey, I don’t count teasing something OP if I’m just lying/trolling. Hint: Star Wars program and U.S. counterintel.
Sorry if I contributed to that. I thought DaShiv had a goodish proposal (heck I even linked it in a build for a while, which I later regretted due to some of the responses he was getting so I got rid of the link on those grounds. Lesson learned). I stand my ground on nerfing end game skeles too hard though because I think the mastery legit needs the DPS due to it’s other shortcomings. (But I’m mostly an idiot so no big head on the matter.)
Yes. lol. Yes I do. lol. I’m sure Zantai is legit about the pathing issues but I know the balancing issues HAVE to play a big part as well current patch. Which I totally respect btw. Let’s just be honest about the matter (especially since we are addressing builders being honest and forthcoming. Two way street).
Anyways. I just love this game and community. Lurked from day of vanilla release. Know all you guys way before I chimed in. 
You don’t necessarily have to post an entire build, or if you wish, you can post it in the No Reply Section. Discussing a particular item/skill/a combination thereof can be enough to point things in the right direction.
Fun/weird things are great to support. However, sometimes that can be difficult to change to the degree players would like as it can take significant revisions that can create new issues with other builds, or require new items.
Meant it as the OP sharing something he believes needs to be tuned down and offering their opinion on it.
My point is that players are often reluctant to discuss nerfs, some straight up refuse to acknowledge that nerfs are an acceptable tool in a dev’s arsenal. When more players accept nerfs can and will happen, they can approach a discussion from a more objective standpoint.
Talking about the Pet Conjurer taking down Mogdrogen in mere minutes, not DaShiv’s thread - I didn’t look at his thread, haven’t tried any pet build since DII necro. Looking to try Unimaginative Skelemancer/ Dracarris at some point but too lazy to try pet builds atm
Well true, that thread did serve that purpose since a bunch of names who are clashing with devs/praetorians in the patch notes were also justifying why that build deserved a nerf.
Agreed on the rest of your views on nerfs.
- Community is divided on what they seek in a build post and the conflict that arises because of that doesn’t interest me. Some community members want the top of the line, most powerful and optimized builds. Other community members want interesting, out-of-the-box builds that may not necessarily perform especially well but can be very fun to play. While I respect a particular level of optimization, I don’t especially care about minmaxing to the same degree as others, so I think my choice of ‘side’ ought to be obvious.
These kinds of builds are what I like creating and like seeing/reading as well. It’s rare that these kind of builds are OP or anywhere near as well as they usually have less gear support than other builds, especially the ones centred around item sets. In fact, there’s a slim chance that they can get buffed if they use an underused skill or ability
The other reason I would post build guides is for advice to improve such a build. Asking for ways to improve a build requires one to showcase and explain their current build and a guide does just that while having any related discussion in one central spot and obviously, there’s the end goal of making it end game worthy afterwards.
I think explaining the reason behind nerfs, especially unpopular nerfs, would remove/reduce some of that “friction”. For example, why did dw pierce BMs keep getting the nerf bat? DW pierce BMs went from being decent to not being viable. Maybe in your internal testing you guys found a way to build BMs in a way that would make them OP relative to other builds? Explaining the reason behind the nerf(s) would help I think, it would also allow players to discuss the thought process and the reasoning behind the nerf(s), at the very least you can avoid the wild tinfoil hat speculations lol.
FWIW I’m in your boat. If I see a build on the forums, I pretty much immediately lose interest in playing it (with very few exceptions) because it’s now explored territory. I like the challenge of exploring new options with class combos, or doing my best to make the most out of the challenges I place on myself. My builds that I’ve posted were a Frostburn Blademaster tank, Avatar of Mogdrogen (Lightning/Pet Hybrid) Druid, and a Bleed Caster Witch Hunter; none of them are really top tier but they were really fun to try and make work. Now I’m working on a solo/self-found Defiler build because that whole class combo seems a little wonky to make work without end-game gear, but I’m up for the challenge.
I enjoyed your Critjacks Invoker of Light build; I thought it was awesome how you managed to make 2 different end game sets work together. I’d look forward to any more cool ideas you have =)
If you mean lazy irl, I get you.
If you mean lazy game play, treat yourself to the runner up or valepiercer skelamancer builds I posted up under the main. Both of them are really laid back and smooth to play. Valepiercer version is a little more out of the box if you prefer that sort of design (but obviously revolves around specific items and a lowish chaos res on pets is the only thing I don’t like about the latter).
EDIT: My irl friend was actually complaining to me about skelmancer on the way to Ragnarok yesterday about not being able to see what was what and who was who on the screen while “under the influence” due to all the critters and auras. I was like “did you die though?” and he said no it was just hard to follow. “Sounds like I should update the pros and cons section then.”