Drain Essence Needs...Something

Note: This feedback follows as consequence of playing Version 1.2 of Grim Dawn. As it does not directly concern 1.2, I placed it here rather than in the PTR subforums.

Tooled up and toyed around with a Drain Essence build recently, and found it utterly unplayable, in the most extreme sense:


(I wasn’t even casting Doom Bolt much at all, due to DE’s energy consumption)

This rode on the back of derision and implied distaste of the skill from others, who were generally apparently unsatisfied with its performance (though I’ll leave them to comment on it as they see fit) in the damage department. Frankly, I have no great qualms of the above build’s damage, only its literal unplayability.

Yes, one can point out that certain aspects of my build were overly aggressive or neglected pursuits of energy regen - a meme build, ultimately, aiming to take -OA anywhere it can find it (such as Rend in devotion; I almost considered Arcane Bomb too…). But I would question in retort whether such things should be necessary in the first place. At the end of the day, this is ultimately a game, but extreme cases such as this that render the game unplayable feel like a deeper problem. And yes, energy cost is a bit of a problem child in GD; you don’t really notice it until something becomes unsustainable, and there’s rarely any in-between.

Which is all to say that I think Drain Essence is worth giving a looking at. Now, if we turn around and say that channeled skills like it should require some greater investment in energy regen than the build above, that’s all fine and dandy, but it doesn’t change the fact that the general consensus on the skill is not presently very positive (again, for reasons TBD by others). But my current feedback, based on what I’ve experienced firsthand, is purely in the Energy Department.

So, I’d suggest one of two things:

  1. Adding some -% Energy Cost to Decomposition
  2. Remove the additional Energy Costs altogether from one (or both) of Hungering Reach and Decomposition.

For the former, I think Decomposition is the “weakest” DE node when you’re not making a meme -OA build like I was, so giving it another stat to be interested in is, in my eyes, the best approach. But it seems counterintuitive for a skill (modifier) to grant -% Energy Cost while also adding an Energy Cost. Hence the second suggestion, though I’m not presently of the camp to advocate for both.

The third solution, which I don’t like, is to sprinkle more -% Energy Cost onto more items. There’s already some out there that have it, but of the six items with DE skillmods used in the above build, none possess such a stat.

I’d rather see the stat innately than pigeonholing people into specific item selections, though.

Share thoughts below, especially if you have (informed) opinions on DE that are not concerned with its Energy costs.

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Been a while since I last played DE but I remember it’s overall dmg output not being all that great + it needing very high amounts of OA to function properly (see hungering reach) which can be rather hard to archive without the use of a lot of aggressive of attack affixes.

Personally I think that the -oa reduction on decomposition would be better off being -da reduction with a slight push to it’s values.

Also +1 to the energy cost issue with it.

EDIT:

Also can these gloves please finally get casting speed % ?
DE would very much appreciated it and DB too to make casting it feel more smooth.

What about the rest of vit gloves?

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Absolutely against it, DE builds usually do not have high DA values.

But this is great! :+1: Add Dark One and Morgoneth gloves to the roster as well (%AS for second ones too).

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Yeah, it’s unnecessarily energy-hungry for what’s the worst of the 3 main beam skills.

I always tell anyone: “don’t bother with Drain Essence until you are lvl 94 and have the gear for it, it deals more damage to your energy bar than the enemy’s health bar”

What we did for the season mod was the following:

Necromancer
Drain Essence

  • increased aether damage
    from 3; 6; 9;12;16;20;24;28;32;36;41;46;52;58;64;70;79;88;97;106;115;127;139;158;177;210
    to 5;10;15;20;25;30;35;40;45;52;59;66;73;80;87;96;105;114;123;132;141;155;169;183;201;224

  • increased vitality decay damage
    from 5;10;15;20;26;32;38;44;50;57;64;71;78;85;92;99;108;117;126;135;144;155;166;185;204;236
    to 8;16;24;32;40;48;56;64;72;80;88;96;104;112;120;130;140;150;160;170;180;190;200;214;230;260

  • changed energy cost
    from 3; 3; 4; 4; 5; 5; 6; 7; 8; 9;10;12; 14; 16; 18; 20; 22; 24; 26; 28; 30; 32; 34; 36; 38; 40
    to 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7; 8; 9;10;11;12; 13; 14; 15; 16; 19; 22; 25; 28; 31; 34; 37; 40; 43; 46

Hungering Reach

  • removed energy cost

^This helped a lot to make the skill more viable at all without any endgame set up, but was probably still not quite enough. I can only encourage Crate to try out the above changes and/or do their own changes that go in a similar direction. Drain Essence is currently arguably the worst skill in the game for anything non-endgame related.

I also dislike this as imo the skill should at least be somewhat playable without having to find items. Especially since it’s a lvl 1 Necro skill and thus lots of new players will try it out.

A new player that currently specs into Drain Essence is likely to uninstall GD before even getting access to the spirit guide.

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There are multiple solutions to DE energy problems but each one has some drawbacks (as it probably should).

I specced into Scales of Ulcama and took Oclaine’s Lantern along the way. This combined with Girdle of Stolen Dreams solves nearly all my energy problems - I have over 1k energy more than your build with nearly 35 energy/s faster regeneration. Because I can barely reach 3k OA, I have Sigil and more points in Siphon Souls as supplementary damage (both boosted with Skull of Gul’Amash).
I also don’t use Ill Omen since it’s counter productive - I want swarm on mobs on at all times for Sigils, Siphon and energy leech. This means Possession was necessary to increase tankiness, which in turn hurt my casting speed - a problem that I partially solved with Bloodfury Spaulders (nearly full uptime with cooldown reduction).
This is my WIP build that I never fully optimized but managed to farm SR75 with it quite comfortably.

I played Dreadwalker before this and I didn’t have energy issues with it. Same goes for Spectral Shield build which I was using all the way up to 94 level.

If anything, something should be done about DE’s damage. I feel it’s too weak on its own, at least vit version - no mater which build you use (legendaries, Dreadwalker, greens). I’d like some more base power instead of crit damage since many DE builds struggle with OA and it kinda funnels builds into using greens instead designated DE items (which solve energy issues…).

I think the struggle with energy is an essential part of building channeling builds. There should be a price for “holding RMB permanently” after all. The problem with DE is the fact that it’s kinda not worth it… It’s too weak for its cost so I’d rather give it more power (or shift it from crits to baseline) than reduce the cost.

Also, how many end-game items do we need with ADctH mods for DE and why Dreadwalker proc has healing when baseline skill already can fill the heath-bar at ridiculous pace? I think those bonuses fit the skill thematically but they all just boost what DE already does extremely well on its own instead adding something new. Weakening enemies in various ways would also fit DE and be more useful than more ADctH. Slow, OA, DA leach, energy leach, impaired aim, fumble, etc. - or even all of them with “xx% chance of one of the following to happen”. DE spewing random curses - that would be an interesting idea!

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Man we have some different standards cause DE leveling felt absolutely busted to me, and that was before it got buffs several patches ago. I guess everyone just expects to steamroll leveling now.

Just compare it to e.g. skeletons + searing ember/flintcore bolts leveling. It’s not even close for levels 1-30ish imo.

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I’m not sure early level skeletons should be the measure of ideal leveling :laughing:

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I mean, you won’t be using only DE during leveling, would you? I actually did level two characters with it + RE, and it was pretty ok. Obviously, RE was doing the heavylifting, but DE was providing that much needed sustain, because I personally don’t like crutching Bat into every single build - even while leveling. My only problem with it is that itemization is lacking in conversion department. I have no idea why that Leafmane MI still doesn’t have 100% aether → vit mod on it instead of that redundant life leech to DE (as if the skill was missing it, riiiiight).

Energy problems are mostly solved by Scales, although reducing energy cost a wee bit would be welcome.

Did a quick crawl run up to burrwitch village just to see how busted painfully slow it rly is and ohhhh man was I tempted to not just spam the ice spear skill from the component the moment I got it cuz it was just that much better! :roll_eyes:

All the skillpoints invested into early DE felt beyond wasted and the skill gaining a chance for extra targets should imo also start out higher. (maybe ~20%)

Would 100% NOT recommend leveling with DE, sry Z… this felt awful! :frowning_face:

Preface - this is post is not against lowering DE Energy cost just my own thoughts, experiences and how I deal with Energy problems.


@MergosWetNurse I leveled SSF Cold DEE once Reaper and had a blast. It’s hard for me to relate to others players because toons are always 100% optimized. Also I played Crucible a bit for a few devotion points to get to Energy devos earlier. Also I don’t remember low levels, how much struggle it was but I may redo it for a test.

  • you can see Harp (together with Scythe) which is the best Energy provider in the game so I had no issues in this department

  • the in-built life leech makes you very, very durable

  • DPS wise the character was also very optimized

  • I’m not using any “Of Insight” items which are actually easy to get if you clear all totems while leveling
    my 2 last characters had one before Krieg

Spirit dump could be another solution but this would require you to change this 1035 Physique requiring DE chest which is kinda weird because of that. But let’s say we don’t do it and the questions is whether you take Scales for Energy regen (and RR you don’t have if I’m not mistaken) or you follow your concept. Well actually in your case Rend actually does fit because you deal some Bleeding damage.

But in my opinion in general If Energy devos are not necessary in cases of some buillds when they cannot afford a big Spirit dump, then they are pretty much useless for this purpose and player never take them which means dumbing down the game. And for every such case we could find a player that would complain on that. However I know I’m the exception in that I like to actually solve energy issues and other players would like this to be gone from the game.

For my recent 2h Fire FoI I was able to make a really nice devo setup with Harp for example Purifier, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator instead of giving up and saying it’s not sustainable. It makes the game more interesting when you have to be creative with the devotion instead of making the standard cookie cutter Fire devo. And suffer let’s say 3% damage loss.

I disagree. There’s totally in-between and there are various levels of not being able to sustain energy. If can be easily seen when leveling and developing character using energy intensive skills. For example You may need to use Energy potion very carefully / strategically or w/o much thought every now and then. You may only have troubles in long boss fights. The build might only be playable with Crucible with the buff. Only Red Ravager might be an issue.


As for leveling, time and time again I read that some skills are super energy intensive when leveling and that you should keep them at low levels to cope with it or that they are totally unplayable. I read this about

  • Eye of Reckoning
  • Callidor’s Tempest
  • Stun Jacks
  • Phantasmal Blades.

However with every one of them I way able to figure it out, max the skills asap or eventually and have a blast. I also leveled FoI and DE but don’t remember much now.

Okay, fair enough :sweat_smile: It’s arguably not worse than level 1-20 on Oathkeeper, which truly is the worst early game class. What about comparing it to Ignaffar or Aether Ray?

I guess the combination of low range + single target+ standing still is what makes DE really unappealing since even with the buffs AND two DE MIs in Act 1 that we made in the season I saw almost noone use it pre lvl 94. People either play skeletons or RE… or even bone harvest. Compared to AAR or Ignaffar it kinda just feels meh. Maybe slightly increasing the range while slightly reducing its leech early would make it feel better.

Edit: Nevermind I just remembered that DE is only single target and only hungering reach gives you %chance of AoE. One kinda needs all 16/16 points in DE to deal any damage and one needs 12/12 hungering reach to have any meaningful AoE. 28 skill points to be out of energy in couple of seconds :laughing:

It does indeed have the sustain going for it, but the energy issues are just really bad early game imo. I wouldn’t mind it so much, if DE was a skill you get later on in the tree, but as a supposedly “level 1 starting out skill”, eh.
Apart from sustain, which is also usually solved early game by simply pressing a health pot, it’s kinda just worse than fireballs (panetti has a similar issue). Most early-midgame builds are simply way better off not putting points in DE and instead inventing them into other skills while using fireball for the spam inbetween.

All of the above said, I have actually not tried DE on 1.2 yet, so maybe the infinite energy pots fix some of its early game energy sustain issues, but I’m doubtful.

Oathkeeper is not bad at all imo. For Veteran till Kyzogg maxing RF is really nice and a lot of damage. Then you can respec and just use Fireball till you can afford Guardians at level 12 and it’s a breeze after that.

This should be irrelevant because you can buy them in appropriate numbers fofr energy intensive skills in 1.1.9.8 anyway. Do you have to spend all your iron bits for 5 energy pots early on? Yes. Is it doable - also yes :laughing: After that you keep selling items and can afford even more.

I mean it’s playable for sure, like almost everything is in GD, but it’s worse than all other classes for levels 1-20 and that’s fine. OK catches up in speed with Vire’s Might later on or with bounces from Aegis alongside RF for single target.

I mean… if you use fireball and nothing else then it’s automatically the slowest leveling class, since you can use fireball on every char alongside a cooldown skill.

On fresh start you literally run out of money before shambler, if you play DE. I’m totally fine with its energy cost ramping up at levels 14+, but I don’t understand why it has to be so punishing early when it’s a level 1 skill.

Edit:

from the community league’s changelog:

"Leafmane Trophy

  • added 100% Aether Damage converted to Vitality Damage to Drain Essence"
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@MergosWetNurse
Leveling to see how it feels. Shambler Veteran progress update.
Necromancer, Level 14 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

And yes, I have “Of Insight” just like I had when leveling Jacks / PBs
but I’m kinda tired of simulating it not dropping because like everyone else, I like to equip best stuff I find.
But would be totally playable anyway which you can see when the proc is not working
Also I have spare items in my stash that I could get this 6 Energy / s if needed.

[edit] Tried 18 DE (with +2 on some belt, instead of 13 in the video) on some Totem and it was too much Energy wise because enemies were kinda tough and took long to die.

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Single target clear definitely looks decent, maybe I was overreacting a bit or I have been living in a “DE is bad” bubble all this time. I guess the fact that skeletons and RE exist just throw too much of a shade on DE. :thinking:

How does it feel like clearing packs (with elites)? I guess spectral wrath does that job nicely anyway.

mid-writing-comment-edit-to-respond-to-edit:

yep that’s one of the examples where it feels really rough compared to other skills imo.

I can see it being good as a “use almost only when fighting a boss/elite” skill so you don’t run out of energy. The energy and lack of aoe are personally my biggest complaints about DE. The damage might be okay, but then again remember that you have to stand still and channel it. Channelling skills that force you to stand still should generally rather deal above average damage since they are pretty much the worst type of skills for kiting/hit and run.

Evade should help channelling skills quite a bit (especially the ones with good range like AAR) from what I’ve played so far. It definitely helps dual pistols a lot and dual pistols are actually kinda similar to channelling skills (they do have shorter “windup” than channelling skills tho).

Edit: You probably could just get gravechill instead of maxing out DE for %TDM. Early on damage type doesn’t really matter too much.

I’m done playing it, another video showing some more normal killing near and in Burrwitch Village. Low skill gameplay.

  • I’m trying (not sure if successfully) to tag mobs since with low casting speed and just starting Decomposition Vit Decay seems to play a bit part

  • I found another of Insight but didn’t wear it - skill

  • I thought about TDM from the transmuter but I wanted to go Aether / Vit now because I previously did Cold Reaper

  • I could see more damage / range, it’s definitely not a top tier skill, Energy cost is fine for me so far bu not to absolutely max the skill

Yes, trash dies from it.

I can agree with that.

Necromancer, Level 17 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

And here’s Vitality Phantasmal Blades for comparison:

I am rather biased cause a pure DE + SS build is one of the characters I actually leveled from 1-100 SSF, and before all the buffs the skills received since AoM. I’m sure to some of you here that is sheer misery.

I have a very different standard of what is acceptable. The reality is that my expectations do not always align with everybody wanting to zoom through it all with barely a thought. Everybody’s figured out the optimal paths of least resistance and anything that doesn’t meet those standards is trash. Solving DE’s energy challenges along the way was actually fun to me. /shrug

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