Dual Wield Design Philosophy

I have wondered this for a long period of time, and had intermittent periods of frustration about it, but I would like a concise answer for why dual wielding plays by a different set of rules than other weapon combinations.

If the answer is simply: because it does. Can we please change it to increase build diversity?

Why do you have to unlock the ability to dual wield, ranged or melee weapons, via a specific mastery or item? What about dual wielding is inherently more difficult for my character to learn than running around with a heavy shield and sword, or a giant gun, or a tome that allows me to launch fireballs? I don’t understand why dual wield specifically plays by a different set of rules than the rest of the game.

This isn’t a critique based on realism, either, since nothing about a game of this design is “real.” It just doesn’t make design sense to me and I want to understand it beyond, “because that’s how the game was designed.” Other weapon types, such as 2-handed specialization, simply enhance one’s abilities with a given weapon type, why can dual wield not operate similarly?

I suspect this is a relic from TQ, but can it not be changed? It’s baffling to me. I’m about to open up my kitchen counter and start dual wielding a couple of butter knives just to prove a point. Maybe I’ll swap to my alternative weapon set and carry about a biblical tome and a lamp as my scepter. C’mon man!

It might be a relic from TQ but I’m not sure what the developers or otherwise super gamers would say about that?

But in TQ only mastery to DW (no items) was Warfare and that was the main power of the mastery. Likewise Defense was not the only one to equip shield but the only mastery with passive ‘proc’ of shield hit. Hunting was all based around spear and bow. Etc…

Take two swords in real life and try to attack with them. Or at least swing them effectively. You’ll need a lot of practice to get that to work. This is why it requires a skill to wield two weapons.

Items that enable dual wielding are weird and this is very hard to explain, but we could go with the same logic there.

Once again, the real life example doesn’t really work all that effectively on me. When I pick up a lighter, tape it to a massive tome, I cannot suddenly cast fireballs.

I am primarily trying to understand the design philosophy behind why it operates differently than every other weapon combination in the game.

Edit: Not to mention, if I pick up two swords in real life, regardless of effectiveness, I am dual wielding (just like any other weapon, hence my original claim re: 2 handed specialization, etc).

Design philosophy are simply enough - it is as old as dinosaur sh*t game’s engine

Afaik dual wield can’t be an inherent trait without a skill point investment. Ceno added a skill for his mod that is available for all classes so you can dual wield anything from level 1. Technically, this can be done in vanilla as well.

That said, I don’t see it happening. We’ve already got a nb and inq passive to unlock dw for those classes to add to their identity, whether or not you agree with that design philosophy is irrelevant. I’m not sure Crate wants to make a big change like this.

Nevertheless, realism is the reason pretty much every RPG requires a cost in order for a character to dual-wield. The premise of a fantasy setting is that magic exists, so your fireball example is irrelevant. There could certainly be a fantasy setting where part of the premise is that everyone is ambidextrous, but I can’t recall ever seeing one (GD certainly isn’t one).

Also note that GD is more generous to dual-wielders than most RPGs, since it does include items that grant the ability. I suppose they could further add the ability to dual-wield without the current mastery/item restrictions, but the cost would have to be something like -1000 to your OA.

Yes, you can “dual wield” in real life. Unless you’re very skilled, you will be wildly ineffective if you try to fight someone that way. Using your less dextrous hand to move a shield to block an incoming attack is much easier than using that hand to parry an attack, while also coordinating with your other hand to attack (and if you’re not attacking with both weapons, why bother dual wielding?). If you’re curious, you can get in touch with your local chapter of the Society for Creative Anachronism and watch them practice. There are people who dual-wield, but they have to be really good to pull it off. In other words, they invested skill points/feats/etc. that other fighters didn’t have to.

It’s nothing complicated. We decided it was an interesting choice to balance your builds against and it’s not so outrageous to suggest that wielding two weapons at the same time would take additional training.

What a profound revelation. I probably shouldn’t tell you that the Unreal engine is 20 years old. :rolleyes:

Of course, the assumption here is that only melee builds would benefit from dual wielding. What about caster classes that wanted 2 scepters for the stats or bonuses? Surely, it’s just as simple/hard to cast spells holding 1 scepter and a wendigo horn as it is holding 2 scepters.

Also, I didn’t read the question as why anyone couldn’t dual wield effectively, it was why they can’t do it at all. True, it takes practice to become proficient at it (as it does anything). But anyone can pick up 2 weapons and hold them and/or swing them at someone else. What the OP said was true… it doesn’t take any less training/skill to be effective with a 2-handed sword or an axe+shield combination.

Many games allow anyone to wield 2 weapons, with massive penalties to their melee combat effectiveness, unless they take appropriate skills to lessen/negate them… or even apply bonuses at higher levels.

I thought it was an interesting question… too bad the answer is just “because”. :slight_smile:


If you’re going to interpret what I said as “just because”, then I guess every design decision ever can be summed up that way. :eek:

A more important question is, why can’t you dual wield Shields?

or off-hands for that matter :stuck_out_tongue:

Many games don’t allow dual -wielding for all classes. For example , in Diablo 3 you can’t dual weild if you are a crusader or Wizard. It is just convention

It’s a conspiracy I tell you, game devs don’t actually want us to have fun!

Because that’s completely stupid. I don’t care if you technically can hit enemies with anything. They’re not weapons. Hitting enemies with a metal arm-slab is dumb. Designing shields to work with weapon stats is also an effort that’s totally not worth it.


You were saying? :stuck_out_tongue:

I want these in the game as a kind of monster lol.

Yeah, I guess it just seems strange that dual wield was the only thing singled out for the “additional training” piece since the same logic could be applied to any of the other combinations in the game (this isn’t a criticism, merely a note that, for me, it feels inconsistent). In some ways that logic has been applied in the form of additional training for weapon types. It just feels weird as shit to look at my character and think, “this dumb ass cannot even pick up 2 weapons, let alone swing them.”

Will we ever see this design decision re-evaluated?

I doubt it for this game. Whether the devs would consider it if/when they make a GD2 we’ll just have to wait and see.

I want to dual wield mythical soiled trousers. wait no, triple-wield by putting on a pair and swinging a pair each in each hand.

If you wear a pair on your head you can go quadruple-wielding, effectively becoming the Mythical Quadruple Soiled Trouser Poo-Flinger of Legend. Reports of which can be found scribbled in outhouses across all of Cairn. Some say such a person may even eventually attain god-hood, much like the 3, but since he is about quadrupleness he would fracture into 4 beings, or Gods, and thus from 1 comes 4, or Thee 4! And Their Quadrupleness would give the 3 a run for their money, or just make them run in fear of all the poo being flinged at them. Godly Poo. With capital letters and all.