Endgame vs Story in ARPGs

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
1

you are correct, most builds are not in Ultimate yet, leveling becomes a drag and my play time is somewhat limited. I fully intend to finish it with more builds though, more a matter of time.

As to why it afffects my interest, that is simple, there is less content I am interested in than there would otherwise be. I am ok with SR, I get that others want it, but if I feel the main focus of the expansion is endgame while I am not into that, then this obviously affects my interest in the expansion, not sure why that is hard to understand. SR by itself is not enough for that, but this was in response to someone who wanted more endgame than SR.

In the end the expansion will have a new mastery, another type of power that will add another layer of customisation, mobility skills, a story, new constellations for the devotion, more gearā€¦ ext.

all of which I do look forward to whereas SR I am neutral about

As for the Shattering Realm I find it interesting compared to the crucible.

no disagreement, but then I do not play the Crucible so that is not saying muchā€¦

2

I wouldnā€™t say itā€™s hard to understand. I still wonder if itā€™s a matter that the end-game content is being created and if you would be happier for the same amount of content added but without what you consider end-game content.

Or you feel like the amount of content being added to the game that you enjoy is not enough?

To be fair I tried the crucible about 5 times to 150 when 170 didnā€™t exist. Which means I didnā€™t try the crucible with all my builds and I didnā€™t touch the waves 151-170 because I find the Crucible boring.

3

No, as I said I am neutral towards SR, so it not being there or it being there makes no difference to me.

What would make a difference would be if I feel that because of the focus on endgame content ā€˜realā€™ content was cut short. If the ā€˜realā€™ content is the same no matter what, then piling endgame content on makes no difference, itā€™s the cutting other content short that would affect it negatively - or put another way, the inclusion of additional ā€˜realā€™ content would increase my interest

The problem obviously is that no content is free, so adding SR has some impact on how much other content there will be. I am ok with that to a degree because I know others are looking forward to it, but at some point the perceived loss in content to accomodate for endgame will affect my evaluation. Right now this is a hypothetical, as I said the SR has no negative or positive impact on me, but if the balance were eg 80% endgame (however you measure that), I would be less interested than if endgame were 20%

4

Understandable. :slight_smile: But I disagree.

I completely agree that story and context is important, but disagree that maps/rifts lack this! In Diablo 3 I had at least the feeling of doing something good for the world of Sanctuary, in that I slay all this demon filth to make the world a better place. In PoE it also makes sense similar to the Shattered Realm, where the reality is scrambled and stuffā€¦ And Crucibleā€¦ Donā€™t get me started on it, I just donā€™t like an arena game mode personally.

Having endgame content does not mean story and lore is not important. I just donā€™t think it should be the main focus of the game.

5

An hack and slash cannot concentrate his strength on the story. It is impossible, because in that case it is a totally different kind of game. First of all, you see your character from a high distance so you feel like disconected with the character. You cannot see the environement from an human perspective, you donā€™t even see the characters expresion, so. Secondly, You walk around destroying ennemies as you fart and this is suposly be lore wise? To concentrat about the story? no lol. People do not play this game for the story content, itā€™s all about the hack and slash style. Itā€™s all about builds and having your items. The key of this is, imagine this game without items and builds, try to figured you play this game only for his story content without any king of farming, only doing the story line, and jesus that it will be boring. BUT, You can imagine this game without any NPC, quests, story line and stuff and the game is totally viable. You can walk everywhere and kills monsters that you do not know where they came from and people do not care. Because it is an HACK AND SLASH. As I said many times, people give to this games attributes that he do not have and it starts to be a bit a shame here. You guys play a game that you do not even know lol.

The story line is sure important, but saying that it is the main thing in this game is not true at all and it should be.

6

nonsense, look at many classic RPGs like Baldurā€™s Gate or Planescape Torment - or newer ones like Divinty and Pillars of Eternity

Secondly, You walk around destroying ennemies as you fart and this is suposly be lore wise?

as opposed to many other RPGs where you also kill enemies by the 1000s ?

People do not play this game for the story content, itā€™s all about the hack and slash style.

I would not generalize from why you do something to everyone else, it pretty much never is actually true, people have all kinds of reasons

The key of this is, imagine this game without items and builds, try to figured you play this game only for his story content without any king of farming, only doing the story line, and jesus that it will be boring.

Farming is the most boring part as far as I am concerned, I pretty much never do it

Build and items I do care for, without them it would not be an (A)RPG

You can imagine this game without any NPC, quests, story line and stuff and the game is totally viable.

again, to you it is, to me it certainly becomes a lot less viable, probably entirely non-viable

You guys play a game that you do not even know lol.

I play the game the way I want to play it, and that is no less correct than your preferred way. No need to pretend yours is the right way and anyone else does not know what they are doing.

The statistics also do not agree with you, only 5% even finish Ultimate, so that is the upper limit of people grinding the way you do.

7

ridiculous nonsense

you can have the cake and eat it too
believe me, I have played many an ARPG and of course, the builds and the loot are the aspects that drew me first
I would be put off if it was about my little pony thoughā€¦
I LOVED the lore of Diablo 2, didnā€™t play a lot of Titan Quest because the mythology thing wasnā€™t really my cup of tea
collecting lore notes in Grim Dawn feels similar like collecting loot to me, I read them all and am very much immersed in the story and atmosphere of this game

maybe you should change your name to unknowing dude

8

Or perhaps we just see hack and slash/RPG games differently from you. For me, yes the game would be totally different without the items and builds, but also yes it would be totally different without the storyline and quests. Wallk everywhere and kill stuff - sounds like those old martial arts games where you fight someone to win and nothing else - and which would bore me to death.

For me a hack and slash/RPG is all of these things: storyline, quests, killing stuff and collecting items. There has to be a reason (storyline/quests) to be doing what Iā€™m doing otherwise thereā€™s no point to the game. Wandering around just killing stuff and nothing else. Totally not interested.

I doubt you could name a single hack and slash that doesnā€™t have any kind of storyline at all. It might be pretty threadbare, but there will be one.

9

Inb4 harsh post.

You guys start to fucking trigger me. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing, just so you can count a few more posts to your ā€œpost countā€. It seems like you have an opinion about everything in the existing universe.

OF COURSE story is an integral part of an ARPG, so that the player can justify to himself why he is killing all the monsters and why it makes sense. The choices in some of the quests are really cool!

But the STORY is merely a TOOL for your typical hack&slash ARPG, the GOAL is to have many different builds, character progression, loot, killing monsters, finding better loot, maximizing your damage potential, having fun with the game.

You seem to have no clue about the current ARPG genre and what makes it so much fun. The story is the most fun part of the game? Sure, if thatā€™s your opinion, then fine. But donā€™t ever assume it is for most players of an ARPG. Iā€™m not saying you are assuming that, but while reading some of your posts it makes me think that subconsciously you do.

10

If you cannot handle the fact that not everyone agrees with you, then donā€™t be on a forum and stay out of discussions in general. As far as I can tell you also have an opinion and you can post yours while I can not post mine when it disagrees because you cannot handle that ?
I never post for the sake of post counts, canā€™t think of anyone who does that beyond three posts, so they can post pics / links, as if anyone cared about that.

OF COURSE story is an integral part of an ARPG, so that the player can justify to himself why he is killing all the monsters and why it makes sense. The choices in some of the quests are really cool!

But the STORY is merely a TOOL for your typical hack&slash ARPG, the GOAL is to have many different builds, character progression, loot, killing monsters, finding better loot, maximizing your damage potential, having fun with the game.

I agree, but UnknownDude was the one saying quests and story could be removed without much consequence

seems you disagree with him more than with us :wink:

You seem to have no clue about the current ARPG genre and what makes it so much fun. The story is the most fun part of the game? Sure, if thatā€™s your opinion, then fine. But donā€™t ever assume it is for most players of an ARPG. Iā€™m not saying you are assuming that, but while reading some of your posts it makes me think that subconsciously you do.

so you think grinding is ? Then how come only 5% even finish Ultimate ?

I am not saying grinding should be taken out because no one wants it, I am saying I am not enjoying it, emphasis on I.
The dude was the one saying that anyone who does not grind is playing it wrong. No one else made the mistake of assuming their own opinion is the only possible / valid one.

Grinding has been an option in ARPGs since day one, so not sure about your ā€˜current genreā€™ part. But if that is the fun part, then how come only 5% finish Ultimate ?

Grinding is not integral and for most it is not even fun, even though it apparently is for you. If it were fun for most, the statistic should look very differentā€¦

Also, I did not say the story is the most fun part, I said senseless grinding is not fun for me. That does not mean I play an ARPG for the story only or even primarily.

11

No oneā€™s arguing for argumentā€™s sake (I hope), but expressing their differing views on the subject. All games, not just this one, are different things to different people. If we all liked the same thing we probably be stuck with D3 and nothing else. :eek:

12

I can handle the fact that not everyone agrees with me, it is not like I know everything or my opinions are ā€œrightā€, but I get angry when people talk bullcrap and are in the loud minority. Let me take the time to comment on some stuff:

ā€œFirst of all, you see your character from a high distance so you feel like disconected with the character.ā€

We are talking about Grim Dawn specifically, not any other ARPGs. You cannot compare games like Divinity to Grim Dawn, as their ABSOLUTE MAIN FOCUS of the gameplay is storytelling, as well as very slow combat. Grim Dawn, PoE and Diablo are completely different in that regards, in that the main aspect is SLAYING MONSTERS and GETTING LOOT.

ā€œPeople do not play this game for the story content, itā€™s all about the hack and slash style.ā€

If farming is the most boring part for you, then you are in the minority. Most if not all die-hard ARPG fans think this is what makes an ARPG. Hack, slash, loot.

Quote from Wikipedia: ā€œDiablo has received critical acclaim, with an average rating of 94 on Metacritic. Most praised the gameā€™s addictive gameplay, [ā€¦]ā€

I have 300 hours in Grim Dawn and did not finish Ultimate on AoM because I am stuck on the last boss with my main character. So I am not part of that statistic, stop using it to justify the game is not about killing and grinding monsters to get loot.

As everyone knows by now, games are getting more and more casual to appeal to a wider audience of casual gamers with short attention spans. This can be observed in many games, for example World of Warcraft.

A better indicator to use (rather than your statistic that you put in every single one of your posts) would be the ā€œcurrent player countā€ that you can view in Steam in the Community Hub, in my opinion.

That is correct. But you deny the fact that loot hunting (i.e. ā€œfarmingā€), and thus slaying monsters is what makes this game into what it is, an ARPG like Diablo, Path of Exile and so on. It is the ESSENTIAL CORE MECHANIC of this game. :rolleyes:

Cheers.

13

ok, first things firstā€¦ how do you even know this is a minority opinion ? Given the statistics, this is the vast majority and the grinders are the vocal minorityā€¦

ā€œFirst of all, you see your character from a high distance so you feel like disconected with the character.ā€

We are talking about Grim Dawn specifically, not any other ARPGs. You cannot compare games like Divinity to Grim Dawn, as their ABSOLUTE MAIN FOCUS of the gameplay is storytelling, as well as very slow combat. Grim Dawn, PoE and Diablo are completely different in that regards, in that the main aspect is SLAYING MONSTERS and GETTING LOOT.

He was talking about the iso perspective making it impossible to connect with your char, I pointed out that many RPGs, where connection with the char is more important according to his logic, have been using that same perspective

No one compared the two on story telling and said they had to be similar. I esp. picked RPGs that are heavy on story to argue the point that the iso perspective does not get in the way of that

To make it clear for you, yes, the focus of ARPGs is on the A part, ie creating your build, finding items and killing monsters, story is a distant second to that.

If farming is the most boring part for you, then you are in the minority. Most if not all die-hard ARPG fans think this is what makes an ARPG. Hack, slash, loot.

and if you think the die-hard ARPG fans that like grinding are the majority of players of an ARPG, you are delusional. Just look at the statistics, with 5% completing Ultimate, that is the upper limit for who could be grinding.

Quote from Wikipedia: ā€œDiablo has received critical acclaim, with an average rating of 94 on Metacritic. Most praised the gameā€™s addictive gameplay, [ā€¦]ā€

I do not read ā€˜most praised the ability to mindlessly grindā€™ hereā€¦ addictive gameplay does not mean grinding, it means the emphasis on action in the combat - up to that point combat had been turn basedā€¦

I have 300 hours in Grim Dawn and did not finish Ultimate on AoM because I am stuck on the last boss with my main character. So I am not part of that statistic, stop using it to justify the game is not about killing and grinding monsters to get loot.

Finishing Ultimate means killing Log on Ultimateā€¦ as far as the achievement is concerned, so you are part of the 5%

As everyone knows by now, games are getting more and more casual to appeal to a wider audience of casual gamers with short attention spans. This can be observed in many games, for example World of Warcraft.

I donā€™t see GD as part of that trend, you ?

A better indicator to use (rather than your statistic that you put in every single one of your posts) would be the ā€œcurrent player countā€ that you can view in Steam in the Community Hub, in my opinion.

how so ? it does not tell you how long the player has been playing (might just have bought the game) or what he is doing (grinding because he likes it or levelling his 4th char because he prefers that).

I will stop using that statistic as an argument when your side can show that it is not proof of my point. So far all of you have been ignoring it, which implies that you cannot do thatā€¦

That is correct. But you deny the fact that loot hunting (i.e. ā€œfarmingā€), and thus slaying monsters is what makes this game into what it is, an ARPG like Diablo, Path of Exile and so on. It is the ESSENTIAL CORE MECHANIC of this game. :rolleyes:

I agree that without the ability to farm (eg by monsters not respawning), it would not be a classical ARPG in the vein of Diablo.
I agree that without diverse loot it also would not be that.
I agree that levelling your build and improving your gear is the core mechanic.

None of this means that the endgame grind is a core mechanic or that most players even do that, let alone enjoy it

14

This is the most barrage of nonsense i have read in a while. So Fallout is not a story driven game because itā€™s isometric and the camera is pulled back? Wow, this is stupid.

I would find this game extremely boring and i would have quitted ages ago if this game had no story, npcs, lore or anything to engage me with anything. If the game was just running around aimlessly, killing enemies for no reason with no context i would have considered this game crap.

No story is fine in puzzle games because they were never meant to have them, but a RPG of any subgenre without any story, npcs or anything that can engage me is terrible to me. I donā€™t care if the main point of this genre ā€œis to grind mindlesslyā€, i want bare basic plot, lore, npcs and anything that setups the world and gives it any context. Without that i donā€™t care about mindlessly grinding because i donā€™t care about the world in the game.

15

I wonā€™t spend many words but why someone should play gd hoping that turns into d3/poe when he/she could just play d3/poe?

16

Because people who really like the game will stay and continue playing, i.e. reaching endgame / completing Ultimate. That is the 5% who still play the game now, and who will be supporting Crate and buying future expansions. The people who care about the game. In the case of Path of Exile, this is the target audience who buy a lot of cosmetics, stash tabs, character slots, supporter packs for new leagues.

I see, I agree with that.

Alright, then we are on the same page.

No, the die-hard ARPG fans are not the majority of players, but the ones that Crate cares about, despite being a business and making money, of course.

I just wanted to point out that Diablo is not mainly about story (neither is Grim Dawn), thus most players play the game due to build diversity, replayability, character progression and slaying monsters, all in context of lore, of course. Story is just not THE aspect of this type of ARPG.

No, and I am thankful for it! This is why Grim Dawn is my favourite ARPG and one of my favourite games overall, as it was designed with ARPG veterans in mind from the get-go.

I would assume most of the currently playing players are that ā€œ5%ā€ you keep talking about, as the last expansion was released quite some time ago. When FG launches, that number will rise of course due to people coming back and new players alike.

Just because players level many characters (myself included) to try out different builds does not mean they donā€™t want more/better endgame mechanics if they decide to maximize their builds and farm for better loot, or simply have some fun slaying all those monsters with ease once the build is maximized. I view that as an essential part of any ARPG. We have roguelike dungeons and the Crucible, and now the Shattering Realm. :slight_smile:

As I have stated before, that 5% are the people who care about the game and will further support it, the ā€œregularsā€ you could say. For those people, having more content on top of the maximum level would be great, that is why I love the announcement of the Shattering Realm.

Of course it is a core mechanic, and very important for hunting loot and maximizing builds. What do you think why the Crucible exists, or roguelike dungeonsā€¦ ? Or why does PoE have mapping? Because people enjoy taking their characters to the max, and they love slaying monsters to progress through the mapping system. It is literally a progression system like all the others in the game (factions, devotions, ā€¦). Your argument is that it is merely for grabbing cash from players. It is a valid thing to consider, but not the only reason, since people enjoy the grind and there are people who do not spend a penny on the in-game shop of PoE. Everything is accessible for free.

Implementing more endgame mechanics would also bring many new players in, as they are familiar with those systems from PoE and Diablo and enjoy those. Mapping is literally the main aspect of PoE, and look at how successful it isā€¦

17

Nobody wants to see Grim Dawn turn into Diablo or Path of Exile.

18

PoE isnā€™t sucessful because of mapping because the percentage of people that actually reach them is extremely low. PoE is sucessful because itā€™s a free to play game and it gets constant updates.

I highly doubt SR will bring many players, if none at all. Again, like 3% actually finishes Ultimate, while 50% just beats the main game on the first difficulty and quits. At most will bring some players that will do another playthrough on normal with the new mastery and then they will quit again. And the people who play PoE and D3 already have maps and rifts in those games, why would they come to Grim Dawn for the thing they already have?

19

Well, and where do you see those updates being implemented? Every league brings in some new mechanic that spawns in the world while leveling and in endgame maps. The goal of your character is to play through all ten acts to be able to progress through the mapping system, killing the uber bosses and the Shaper. See, it is all content! I donā€™t know what you people have against that. :confused:

Personally I havenā€™t reached higher map tiers than Tier 7, because I simply donā€™t enjoy the PoE combat, and I donā€™t like the idea of seasons / leagues.

20

I care about the game and have been playing it since it was first released on alpha back in 2013. In all that time I have made it to the end of the game once - yes, once. There are others like me and yes we make up a good part of that 5% youā€™re fond of quoting.

Farming bores me, plain and simple. Crucible I donā€™t play because I also find it repetative and boring. I suspect the Shattered Realm will be the same - but there is the rest of Forgotten Gods to play as well and that is what Iā€™m really looking forward to. Yes, I will be buying the expansion even if I never set foot inside of the Shattered Realm outside of testing, because I love the game, want to support the devs and know that the rest of the expansion will meet my expectations.

Frankly I think this whole discussion is a bit pointless. For many people the story, quests, etc, are important, for others itā€™s the endgame possibilities. Itā€™s not one or the other must be the main reason for a gameā€™s existance. They combine to make a whole.