[Feedback] Infamy gain / imbalance

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

So, after you play the game through normal, elite and ultimate, I often end up with a skewed reputation.
See, Beasts are kinda everyhwere, so it is mostly the first thing I get to Nemesis. Then comes Eldritch, Atherials, Cthonians, Vanguard and Undead. These are all ‘main’ factions. But isn’t there a faction that is missing?

In the story, you smash through Cronleys Gang, destroying their Forges and even killing their leader. That should make you a huge target, right? … Well, maybe you barely got to hated, because you were forced to farm him a couple of times to get some equipment and drops. Otherwise? Getting to Nemesis with that faction is about as hard as getting Nemesis with Kymon’s Chosen / Death Vigil.
The difference is quite apparent. Chosen/Vigil are merely a ‘side’ faction. You are not required to blast through them, to kill them to the last man down and destroy their whole infrastructure. In fact, you often don’t even attack a stronghold of that faction all that often. So then, what does it say about all that, when I regulary have more Infamy with Kymon’s Chosen than with Cronley? And not because I farm them. I merely completed the Death Vigil questline.

So, as far as I am concerned, it is far too imbalanced. You don’t meet Cronleys Gang outside their small territory either.
Either, some throwback to the gang in some other parts (as in, general small groups of criminals ‘belonging’ to the Gang and or directly changing the faction to ‘outlaws’) or an adjustment to the infamy gain.
A simple and logical possibility would be, to get infamy as the story progresses. You destroyed the forges, crippling their ability to produce weapons and weakening them extremly? Is that not worth some infamy? You kiled their leader, the one person everything is built upon. Not like Krieg, who is merely a proxy and ‘just’ a higher up, but the very pillar of the whole gang! Surely you will get a lot of Infamy for practically destroying their whole structure … right?

This would also give a semblance of incentive to play through normal / elite, since the quests alone could net you quite a bit of Infamy (as in, maybe 1k for the forges, 2k for Cronley, adding to 9k in total).

Another point that I noticed, is the lack of Undead in the expansions. In Malmouth, you have … one tomb in Ugdenbog and a tomb in the Steelcap District where you gain undead infamy (as far as I remember) and in the Forgotten Gods expansion, you have no place at all. And that with a lot of mummies and spectres running around (or wraith in Ugdenbog). It makes the Undeads far slower then, say, the Beasts which have their own places in both Expansions. The question is, why do these undead not earn you undead infamy? Take the wraiths in Ugdenbog or the Mummies in the temple City of Osyr. it is not a huge population, but still worth some infamy. It would also make far more sense and allow more immersion than a ‘ok, everything in this area gives Eldritch infamy. No matter what that thing be.’

TL;DR:

  • Cronley needs some support for infamy, suggestion: add infamy to questline
  • Undead that appear in the expansion should give Undead reputation to avoid confusion and to not break immersion.

EDIT: What shall be done about the Infamy gain regarding Cronleys Gang? (and maybe ODV and KC)

  • Don’t change Infamy gain
  • Add Infamy to the questline
  • Increase the amount of spawned heroes
  • add both Infamy to the questline AND increase spawned heroes
  • Zantai rules the world and I shall abide by his decision! (as in: I don’t care)
  • I have another suggestion… (see post)

0 voters

2

Why not have the guardians of dreeg, bysmiel and solael on the hidden path give eldritch infamy then?

For cronley gang, it’s the gimped fabius loot, and shitty campaign loot that makes it all the worse. Yes, he was easier to find, and YES, he was more of a pushover before than now.

However, we have crucible and SR with loot density through the roof. Back then it was literally campaign, Loghorrean, or nemesis hunting (and white items still dropped, and then there was the “MI bug” where double rares never or almost never happened), but that’s over.

Fix fabius’ loot, fix MC loot, and finally undo the nemesis loot nerfs (maybe also do the bounty overhauls we all want), and we’ll be fine.

3

This would cause the undead in the AoM areas to fight with beasts.

4

You are confusing enemy type with faction. The Undead faction refers solely to the arkovian undead. And not related, but I’m annoyed about all this recent talk abot “immersion breaking”. The term has become so overused that I’m doubting people even know what they are talking about anymore.

5

The Undead faction makes it pretty clear it’s referring to Arkovian undead.

In fact, if we made the undead you list as part of this faction, That would be immersion breaking.

6

Okay, let me clarify what I meant regarding the Undead: While it is implicitely stated that they are trapped in the Arkovian Undercity, they are stated as ‘Undead’ in general. So, either it would need to be adjusted to say ‘Arkovian’ Undead, or I would not limit that faction to those which can be found in Arkovian ruins (As far as I know, the Tomb of Herald Mathis has no indication whatsoever that it belongs to Akovian for example).
I do admit that changing the faction they do belong to is not the most optimal solution (Norzan is quite right with his point), but that was not actually my point. I personally would like to see Infamy and Reputation be not interdependant. Lets say, you kill a wraith in the Ugdenbog, for me this would be ideal:

  • you get infamy for undead (and maybe even for beasts)
  • you get reputation for Coven of Ugdenbog, but not for Homestead nor Rovers.

Before you rip me apart once more, let me state my point behind it: The wraiths, being undead belonging to Ugdenbog, should be of no concern to Homestead, who are afraid of wild beasts. They should, though, be happy if you clear out other beasts, since it proves your ‘ability’ regarding beasts.
Rovers don’t care about the wraiths in Ugdenbog since they are intrically linked with the Undead in Arkovian due to the history between the Rovers and that past Empire. They thus don’t care for these undead, unattached to their past.
I know that this change would be a huge one, and thus I did not go into such fine detail in my initial post. Instead I hoped that the Infamity could be decoupled a bit, and thus, make Undead also give Undead reputation. In fact, I don’t even demand that their faction should change to undead. As in, I would be perfectly fine if killing a wraith in Ugdenbog would:

  • give you infamity for Beasts and Undead
  • give you Reputation for Homestead and Coven of Ugdenbog.

The same would be true for those Undead found in the Korvian Lands.

I do admit that the argument ‘immersion breaking’ was a rather poor one, and I should have gone with ‘illogical for casual players’. As in, someone who just plays the game without being completely up to date regarding the background of everything around them. Someone who just kills a monster that is stated ‘undead’ and wonders why the hell a mummy, that isn’t seemingly connected to Eldritch, gives that as Infamy instead of their designated type of ‘undead’.

Having that somewhat out of the way, I would like to appeal to you to not be stuck on a part of my argumentation and get back to my main argument - that is the lack of Infamity gain for Cronleys Gang.

7

I agree with the feedback on infamy for the Cronley / Chosen / Vigil factions. It takes a massive amount of bounties and grinding once the act quests are done to get them to Nemesis (100% OK as a process or mechanic when you’re on 1st or 2nd play-through).

Then you get Beasts to Nemesis way earlier with far less bounties (every play-through) and have tremendous fun when you run into Kupacabra on Elite while still progressing the story line.

It would bring a lot of excitement if you run the risk of a Nemesis in any of the Cronley / Chosen / Vigil faction quests on Elite and/or Ultimate difficulty. Why not simply increase their bounty infamy - since their content is limited to fewer and earlier areas?

8

The nemesis system could use a good boost. Most pre-endgame or endgame builds can do shard 50+ or crucible with buffs, so Hunting nemesis for MI is entirely obselete except Kaisan’s.

Boost their double rare chance and increase their drops would be great. Id love to comeback to campaign every once and whille and still being rewarded nicely.

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9

nemesis should have heroes to support them.

10

BTW, i wonder, why killing beasts in main campain grants infamy towards Beasts faction, despite Kupacabra doesnt spawns there? Meanwhile, killing beasts in Korvaak Basin grants infamy towards Eldrich Horrors for some reason…

11

Only mongrels and the raptors in the eldritch locations give infamy for Eldritch Horrors. Griphons, Vipers, regular raptors and the like give Beast Infamy.

12

Okay, I do want to intersect once more:
I still would like a reply from @Zantai, why the Ghouls in the crypts are considered undead, but the Ugdenbog Wraiths do not, when the ghouls are not arcovian in origin (ingame lore does say that these ghouls were ‘criminals, witches, …’).
Also to elaborate my earlier suggestion:

Currently we have a specific set of factions. I would like to add ‘Sub’-factions, working like following:
A Sub-faction belongs to a higher faction. For example, the sub-faction ‘Ugdenbog Undead’ would belong to the Undead, but the ‘Ugdenbog Undead’ would be allied with beasts, …
So, while every Sub-faction inherit their base values, these can be overwritten (as in, a classic sub-class). Also, the Faction of Cronleys Gang would become ‘Outlaws’, with Cronleys Gang being a sub-faction.
Now, each faction you are allied with can have different reputation. Lets say, Coven:

  • Coven would get Reputation when you kill:
    Ugdenbog Beasts, Ugenbog Undead, Ugdenbog Outlaws.

  • Devils Crossing would get Reputation from:
    Cronleys Gang, Burrwitch Aetherials

  • Rovers:
    Cronleys Gang, Arkovian Undead

  • Homestead:
    Homestead Beasts, Homestead Aetherials

  • Black Legion:
    Fort Ikon Aetherials, Fort Ikon Cthonians (includes bloodgrove)

  • Malmouth Resistance:
    Aetherial Vanguards (nothing to add, since there is nothing else. Maybe add Outlaws or something to Malmouth? Well, too late for that I suppose)

  • Conclave:
    Forgotten Gods Eldritch, Forgotten Gods Undead, Forgotten Gods Beasts, Korvaak Chosen (basically the same as is currently.)

  • Outcast:
    Aetherials, Cthonians (stays as well)

  • Order of Death Vigil:
    Aetherials, Korvaaks Chosen

  • Kymons Chosen:
    Cthonians, Korvaaks Chosen (revenge for Kymons Betrayal)

So, that would be the reputation gain from the ‘allied’ factions.
Well, the biggest change for the ‘enemy’ factions is clearly the former Cronleys Gang. The faction would now be ‘Outlaws’ and include Cronleys Gang, Burrwitch Outlaws and Ugdenbog Outlaws.
As in, the Ugdenbog Cannibals would become the Ugdenbog Outlaws (not their Wendigo forms). It should help with the abysmal infamy gain for Cronleys Gang, since you can now meet more Outlaws in other areas as well. Basically, every human presence that does not belong to a dedicated faction, would be considered outlaws for me.

All in all, this change would be a huge one and I do suppose that it will not happen. Still, this subforum is dedicated to user ideas, and thus I thought it worthy to write it down.

13

You got a point on the ghouls. There is no explanation about why they are considered part of the Arkovian Undead faction :thinking:. Now, about your suggestion… Sounds too convoluted to implement with very little gain. A simpler solution would be to raise the infamy gain for Cronley’s Gang enough to reach at least Hated after beating Cronley in Ultimate.

14

First of all: Thank you for changing the name of the undead faction :slight_smile:

Still, the infamy gain for the listed factions (Cronleys Gang, Kymons Chosen and Order of Death Vigil) remain extremly low.
As an example, I recently started a new character, blazing through normal and elite. I am currently at the end of act 4 in ultimate, having cleared the Undead and Cthonian Dungeons so far. I have done most quests (though not the dungeons save the FG one) in both Normal and Elite, as well as having not used any infamity/reputation boosts nor bounties.
factiongain
As can be seen, I have reached the revered status for Order of Death Vigil, but remain despised for Kymons Chosen. Worse yet, even though I completed the questline for Cronley’s Gang, I still remain at the beginning of ‘despised’, being even lower than Kymon’s Chosen. (mind that I still haven’t completed Ashes of Malmouth, thus the rather low infamity with the Vanguard, but completed two FG dungeons, resulting in a somewhat higher infamity there).

As I had already proposed, I would like to see some kind of infamy gain when completing the questline. Ideally reaching hated after completing all quests in each difficulty (not considering the actual kills). This would bring it in-line with the other factions.

Additionally, I would wish for another way to increase infamity regarding Order and Chosen. I would like, for example, the option to access the headquarter of the enemy faction once you become revered in the one you have chosen, simulating a small ‘rogue-like’ dungeon for infamy gain. Otherwise, either an increase in heroes and spawns, or infamity gain tied to quests as well.

EDIT: Added a poll to the initial post.

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