[Feedback] Krieg's Set needs bonuses to Fighting Form (and Cadence line)

So improve the Krieg set for blitz and improve the conduit for aether cadence - both sides happy?

Maybe add like +1 target to cadence for the conduit mod?

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Sorry to burst your bubble but all Soldier skills are incapable of having a -% RR mod added to it, if I’m not mistaken.

Except it would be. Cadence DW currently has the default 50% chance for both weapons to strike. A cadence BM is looking at something like 450%+ applied weapon damage per swing on average with WPS padding out the normal swings. Belgothian BM on full charge is 520%+ applied weapon damage.

If cadence stacked with wps you’re guaranteeing both weapons swing via wps proc. The average applied hit from cadence alone in the BM case would be roughly 1500%, averaging in with the normal swings for a stellar ~700% weapon damage average per swing on top of the flat riders and potentially degenerate interactions of cadence stacked upon multi target wps. Multi target execution cadence :upside_down_face: where’d the nemeses go?

Cadence does not hit with both hands. It hits with one hand, and if you have DW WPS, the other hand can roll for one of them. However, the 500% WD Cadence hit never happens with both weapons.

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It seems every time this discussion comes up I’m being given different information. has there ever been a proper clarification from the developers on how it works or just datamined tidbits strewn about?

It won’t.
For something to become OP after such a change, it must already be at least competitive which is not the case.

You can test it yourself. It’s a fairly simple test: Battlemaster with 20% * 5 WPS skills standing infront of a dummy. Cadence animation and sound are distinct. And if you turn on dmg numbers you’ll see the strongest hits never come in pairs.

Cadence hit has never gotten a full damage bonus from both hands, and the tooltip that says so is wrong.
When DW Cadence hits it only chooses one of the hands to apply the full bonus (can be either hand), and there is a chance for the other hand to strike as well (probably normal DW rules apply here so 50%).
The 2nd strike counts as a Cadence charge so it helps with charging the next hit; this is the main damage benefit of DWing with Cadence.

One thing that is unknown to me is the damage calculation of the 2nd strike of a DW Cadence hit.
It seems slightly higher than the damage of a normal attack, but it clearly does not apply the full Cadence bonuses to it as it’s much closer to a normal attack’s damage.
I don’t think this part has ever been explored by anyone. It may be as simple as only applying the flat damage and not the % modifier, but this is hard to test with the min-max spread of weapons involved (this might just be the reason too).

The easiest way to do it would be for a modder to test various scenarios with a weapon that has the same min-max values.

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i didnt know this, i just thought that when duel wielding that every third cadence hit will hit with both weapons for 500% weapon damage on each hand. maybe the descriptions need to be a bit clearer. in any case cadence is lacklustre outside of some builds which increase its max target’s etc.

Here’s an in-game demonstration comparing cadence tooltips:

S&B Warlord (22.9K GT weapon damage):
DW Blademaster (33.8K GT weapon damage):

The WD ratio of S&B vs. DW is 0.67, almost the same as the ratio between the average Cadence damage, 0.68. If DW cadence really hit with both hands, it would be at least double compared to the shield build.

Checking the grimtools I see both builds have near identical base weapon damage, but the dual wield has roughly 50% more tooltip value. The difference seen in grimtools between weapon damage and weapon attack comes from the calculation of the baseline 50% chance to hit with both weapons when dual wielding. This could very well be a case of the in game tooltip lying (quite probable), but in absence of that the game is implying that cadence follows that same behavior as basic autos when it comes to the hit-with-both chance.

If only @Zantai could clarify dw Cadence mechanics and its interactions with wps once and for all.

Don’t trust the tooltips. Trust only the numbers on the main screen. Record and replay in slow motion if you have to so that you can clearly see what’s going on. I previously did some research on Cadence + DW Melee WPS interaction. In a nutshell:

  1. Cadence 3rd Strike can combine with WPS. The Cadence hit replaces one of the WPS hits. Multiple replacements for multiple targets are possible with Fighting Form and if the WPS is also multi-target. I don’t recall what happens when a target is inside the AoE of the WPS but outside the AoE of Cadence (e.g. Whirling Death). I also don’t know whether simultaneous devotion procs are possible. I do vaguely recall that if the number of targets in the AoE exceeds the target limit, then the closest ones get hit.
  2. An attack with both hands results in a free Cadence charge. This can happen with both WPS attacks and a normal DW attack that hits with both hands.

The above applies when you are holding down your mouse button, which is what actually happens in real combat. There is different behaviour for single isolated clicks.

My research was peer-reviewed by thejabrixone in October 2018:

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I wanted to make a separate post on the subject of Battlemages. A Battlemage doesn’t have a single mastery skill that can have a -% RR mod added, with the exception of OFF.

This means a Battlemage can only compete with other classes in terms of RR through the following:

  1. Relying on granted skills on items to provide -% RR
  2. Relying on granted skills or mastery skill mods that give flat X for Y seconds RR, where X is highly above average. For example, X = 40.
  3. Same as #2 but for X% for Y seconds RR

The Krieg set provides some additional sources of flat X for Y seconds RR, but the magnitude of X is simply too low to be of much added value.

The problem with either approach is that other mastery combos can then exploit either one of those whilst using another mastery with innate RR like Necromancer for Aether Krieg. Even if you localise a large amount of flat RR in one of Arcanist’s skills, Spellbinder will still put out more damage than Battlemage for instance.

With the way it’s designed, Battlemage is going to struggle on catching up to the other combos unless it makes the difference in resist reduction up through other damage modifiers, which with buffs to Arcanist giving it racial damage, or the additional flat Aether damage to Reckless Power on Krieg, or the numerous weapon damage/flat damage buffs to Spellscourge is what I feel Crate has been trying.

The other thing that could be done for the combo is just accept that Battlemage is naturally going to be subpar for damage and for the sets or builds that pertain to it, make them suitably high on defense with just enough offense to be average/not fast clearers. More of a tank than anything else.

Yeah, only solution I can think of is to make a set so strongly Battlemage focused that you won’t dare use it with another class, even for the RR. Then, add significant effective RR to this set.

Somehow so many items that are used by class combos with double RR have RR procs or even RR auras. And it’s ok. But god forbid Krieg’s Battle Mage will get a RR proc or Aura as a set bonus, no-no-no, we don’t want any other class benefit from it so let Battle Mage remain shit. And to ensure that, let’s cut 8% Aether RR from Corruption too.

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What I said has happened before. For example, remember when Malakor’s Infusion got -15% Elemental RR to Censure to help Tacticians that only get RR from one mastery? Which was all fine and good. Then builds like Deceiver started getting posted that dual-wielded 2 of them and spammed Elemental procs everywhere, thus Malakor’s Infusion got nerfed because of builds not intended for it exploiting it’s power.

yeah, we all know where elemental Malakor’ed Tactician ended up after Malakor’s maces nerfs, don’t we? Spoiler: in the dumpster.

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I don’t see how -% RR on the 5 piece bonus can be OP. 5 pieces is a very high price to pay it constrains the build a lot, especially for possible conversions.

Deathmarked has -15% on 5 piece and other huge bonuses too. And cold is already a lot stronger than aether in endgame. But i don’t see DM builds breaking the game. And the strongest DM build doesn’t have a complete set (Trickster with Korba helm).

-20% aether res and -10% phys res on 5 piece granted skill should be fine.

Another reason why it won’t be OP: DW builds require high base dmg just as much as RR. Sure you can make a Defiler with high innate aether RR. But the base dmg of Defiler is very low.
Battlemage on the other hand has very high base dmg. And -20% RR for Battlemage will be a lot stronger than for other classes.

I think i made my case :grinning:

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