Feedback on Scion of Arcane Force's RR vs Battlemage

So, on paper this 2 hander Mace looks mint for an Discord Cadence Battlemage, adds a ton of elemental damage to Cadence, and some flat RR, which Battlemage lacks skills wise otherwise.

The problem is that flat RR of any type does not stack, So combining it with the easiest to use elemental RR devotion, Rhowan’s Crown means you only get 33 max, because the Cadence modifier overrides the 32 flat elemental RR Elemental Storm gives. Meaning you’re really limited in gear choices if you want to get up to +100 RR.

There’s an easy solution though, switch it from flat RR to -%RR. Allows it stack with other RR sources more easily and makes Battlemage more viable to build around for this weapon.

As otherwise there’s only 1 really choice for a Discord Cadence build - Witchblade, as it has a source of %RR in CoF. Which is pretty bad frankly, as GD usually allows you build different builds than what class focused items would suggest. But the need for RR really limits your options with this weapon.

1st. Cadence cannot get %RR by any mean. This is a part of game mechanic. You can only give %RR mod to skills those “tick” damage every seconds (like all the auras/ inqui seal/ siphon soul/ d.swarm…) All kind of other attack skills (like Cadence, AAR, canister bomb…) can only get -flat RR. And 2nd- i really thought that Scion mace is meant for Witchblade and not BM really. BM can play with it no doubt, but WB will always win due to got a lot more elemental RR bcz of CoF (and if you use conduit to get 15% more %RR for Cof- its even further the gap). Even if you somehow CAN give %RR mod to Cadence, it cannot be fix that WB is way more superior than BM bcz WB will still get benefit from that mod and still have more RR


Except Grim Dawn’s focused on making multiple viable builds, so a restriction on what will work is somewhat against that focus. A focus which has allowed for hundreds, if not thousands of builds that can at least clear the campaign and the easier end game bosses. Which the change I suggest would help hugely.

Because to get my Battlemage build more viable I had to grab every -%RR proc in devotions:

Which severely crimps what I can do devotions wise and means I miss the best elemental (if you have conversion) devotion - namely Attak Seru’s proc. But it can handle SR75 pretty well now thanks to MSP providing damage absorption and all those -%RR devotion procs + 200K sheet DPS. Boss rooms are going to be “fun” though, because I don’t have enough health to soak damage.

There’s simply no way to get -%RR into the Battlemage tree even if they wanted to. The only skill in there that even COULD have -%RR is OFF and that requires freeze resistance reduction, which is already the focus of an entire set (Mageslayer) so they won’t be putting that on a single item (OFF conduit doesn’t count cause the reduction is insufficient anyway). All the other skills are incapable of having -%RR mods and there’s just no way around that.

However, that doesn’t mean Discord Battlemage can’t be viable. I’ve struggled with a ranged version of the build a great deal myself but after some back and forth with a few folks here I did figure out a way to make it work at SR75-80. You can’t make it competitive in terms of RR with a Tactician or a Witchblade or a Commando, but you have other advantages. Arcanist brings you a ton of resilience through Sphere and Mirror, which combines with your War Cry to make you one tanky son of a bitch, and while you cannot compete in terms of RR with the aforementioned masteries, you can make up for the resulting damage shortcomings through more flat and % damage, which Arcanist also helps with through IEE. You’ll still likely not quite make up for the damage you lose through RR but it’s not like Arcanist brings nothing to the table. Also while the fact that Scion’s RR overlaps with Crown is unfortunate, it does at least free up the devo points which you can use for extra lifesteal, attack speed, OA or whatever else you might be lacking, so again, it’s not like it’s a complete loss. Then there’s the fact that there aren’t that many enemies with high resistance to all three elements, barring the usual bullshit high res human heroes, plus Fabius and Grava, so even though you do lack RR, it’s not like all your damage disappears because of it.

All that is to say, you definitely can make a viable Discord Battlemage. It might not be the best option for a Discord build but it does work. Admittedly, my experience with a melee version of it is limited, but if I can make it work with an Ugdenbog Arcaneweaver, I’m sure it can work with a Scion of Arcane force as well. My recommendation would be, focus on what you’re good at. You got Soldier and Arcanist both bringing in the potential for a ton of resilience and you’re not making full use of it. Max out Sphere and War Cry and use a Fleshwarped Casque, that item was what pushed my version over into viability.

there is nothing wrong with “making multiple viable builds” in my comment. you can always play Scion mace with BM like you want- and as you said already, you can clear SR 75 pretty well. But you CANNOT expect to have everything equal, like making BM in the same state as WB in term of power with the same concept (Scion Discord Cadence). WB will always be better with more RR, and even more tankier with higher physic res. And like i’ve already said, due to the game mechanic from the start, there is no way to add %RR to cadence. You can’t change that. here is my own version of Scion WB for you to compare, since i think i have more than your build in everything (even the flat damage/ DA/ physic res/ maximum res / higher life steal…), and especially you dont need the WPS or weird skill like Blitz to proc %RR devotion (thats a huge pain) if you want to try WB instead:
GT: Witchblade, Level 100 (GD - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
Some screen shot:
With all permenant buff:

With Deadly momentum and Iskandra proc:

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As others have said, this is mechanically impossible.

Witchblade version of this build also struggles. Witchblade, Level 100 (GD - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

Hardly does SR 85. IEE mods can be buffed to equalize the performance with WB since RA Warlock with Arcane Force isn’t that good either. Or maybe Horns of Korvaak gets an %Elemental damage mod on IEE. Lifesteal also another common problem with Cadence builds since basic attack leech very little without %100 WPS. Getting DR is another problem that prevents build from doing higher shards. But yes Battlemage in general should get more building options. Not just elemental but aether and physical parts can be improved(not Spellscourge which is in quite good place).


Ofc both are capable of campaign and SR 65-66 reliably. Physical one also can do 75-76 without much problems but Death Knight or even Warlord with Warborn set does much better damagewise.

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Scion of Arcane Force

this is a Warlock hammer :grin:

Bollocks, so weapons can only have flat RR on them due to the game’s code I take it? I guess why that there’s no -%RR skill mod for Warcry too ;-;

Oh well, if it was an easy fix you guys would have implemented it in a patch already.

Guess that’s why Scion of Arcane Force does so much damage then, as my previous BM build of this got 330K damage in SR75 when I had everything proc’d. And I’ve seen hits of 500K in SR75 shards too.

I wouldn’t call managing to get to SR80+ struggling :stuck_out_tongue: Though for a Cadence build, per the standards Warborn builds have set, then yes.

But yeah, BM is sadly more hard to build for outside of physical/aether builds sadly…

so to not hijack the sword & board thread with scion stuff :sweat_smile:
how does this look?
Battlemage, Level 100 (GD - Grim Dawn Build Calculator - also no double rare shenanigans :sweat_smile:
13% lifesteal, 25% DR, more health, tiny bit more dmg, got that viper RR going, bunch of nice racism,

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Looks good actually, might test it out down the line to see if it stacks up. Guess the shift to Fox might be worth it too.

That DPS can only be seen in Shard because of the buff from killing bosses and get multiple Celestial Stones and under effect of some mutators. Dont trust that numbers. For example with EOR builds in SR you can see something like 1m-1m5 DPS. With your GT link, the flat damage is barely 20-30k with permenant buff, so it should be around 180-200k DPS. The only correct number is in normal map, without Mutators and shard buff.
And i totally agree about adding more ADCTH to 3 ele route Devo. It lacking so much, that the only way to get a decent amount i could get is by taking Chain Anguish belt. But it does the job nicely

So I took your suggests:

So far, it’s definitely less likely to die, still pretty glassy due to low physical resistance, and Kaisen is the bane of my runs so far, but with smart piloting (which I’m hit and miss on lawl) it’s handing 75-76 well enough. Definitely helps though if I use resistance pots and health+ pots though, which made the night and die difference facing a certain Archmage on a boss room without anything to block his summons and meteor…

And just noticed there’s 3 points extra in Cadence. But that’s sleeping pill side effects ruining my day for you ;-; Will be very, very handy though to increase certain skills :3

[edit] Also Cursed Tinctures become definitely a thing you need, sure it can shred 34 flat, 23-35% elemental + -8% and x20% from Viper, but when facing certain highly resistance bosses (or a certain mutator roles) it becomes key to maintaining good ADCTH or even damaging certain bosses. But that’s lack of RR for Battlemage builds for you…

A definite surprise though is how easy it is to deal with Kupa, can even chip away at his health standing in the max number of pools relatively safely, but fastest is to move away.

Sentinel’s a bit of a bastard on some runs though, but that’s RNG for you.

I don’t take shrines when testing - allows me to see what the build’s flaws are more easily. Physical resistance is definitely this build’s biggest weakness, along with DA. But thanks, didn’t know we got a buff from the shattered souls that was that significant dps wise.

Wait what… That a typo? Managing SR85 means NOT struggling, or did I miss a meta shift recently?

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Can’t kill Grava, IM without good mutators, struggles againts Fabius, Gargaban and Theodin. So it’s not actually achieving consistent SR 85, if you are lucky you can complete it just that. Ofc build has no problem at 75-76 and if build had better DR and lifesteal, 85 would be easier since damage is not that bad.

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To support the cause… Since i have no clue what non rr classes like battlemage would need to be improved im gonna sit out from this one. The most i can think of is increasing flat ele damage everywhere (weapon, iee line, discord tdm etc.) and maybe the flat rr to cadence higher than it would be usual.

EoR tooltip is bugged too, it counts DoT damage several times (despite it cant stack), so it often shows far higher number than it really is. For EoR, it’s safer to get your DPS through [Damage]x[APS] formula rather than rely on bullshit tooltip.

No RR classes (Soldier and Arcanist) are already significantly stronger than remaining ones in other aspects - Soldier is tanky as hell with his loads of various defensive passives and procs, and Arcanist isnt far behind with his Maiven’s Sphere, Mirror and Nullifycation (despite class description of "glass cannon). Of course, it’s all because of lack of RR.
But when you combine those 2 classes in a single character, the lack of any RR bring too much trouble (due to resistance mechanics). Too often you would find yourself pitted against a heavily resistant or even invincible enemy. Not to mention those 2 classes dont synergize well, as Soldier focuses on physical and bleed damage, while Arcanist - on elemental and aeither ones.
So the only way to makeBattlemage work is to add some blatantly OP items for that class, and with RR too. Probably with a dedicated item skill, as Soldier and Arcanist both have no applicable skills to add it.