[Feedback] Rancor needs a nerf - but it needs to be done carefully

[x1x1x1x2]

Still not the same thing as adding a specifc mod to a weapon.

Lmao it’s basically the same. Member how mods replaced procs in a ton of legendaries when AoM came? I member.

I don’t disagree that Rancor was designed as a pierce weapon tho. While it will obviously get doomed as pierce trickster, we know Crate and Zantai love to make wonky mods to support some really fringe concepts, just turned out to be too strong in another class. As for how to balance stuff? I’ll leave that to you guys. I haven’t tested anything and I suggest anyone who hasn’t tested it stay out of the way unless your name is Zantai.

[sir_spanksalot]

It was at first with cold and then became biased to cold. Still not the same thing as adding a specifc mod to a weapon. If they didn’t wanted to be a pierce weapon, then they shouldn’t have given it the pierce RR mod.

Just because it was, doesn’t mean that it is. And just because something can be done, doesn’t mean that that’s the best thing to do.

Again, I’m not talking about build possibilites (e.g. because then where do we draw the line? What if I wanted to use make a physical based krieg death knight? Or an aether vanquisher templar? Or a cold based TSS spec with trozan set?)

Plenty of sets support 2 damage types, but that doesn’t mean it is meant to perform at an equal level for both.

Sets always tend to lean towards one damage type more than the other.

And most sets which don’t do this become meme sets - voidsoul is one example.

@x1x1x1x2 - fuck you x1

Do you want it there, yes or no?

[x1x1x1x2]

And you wonder why people don’t take us seriously

I never wondered

[Norzan]

Just because it was, doesn’t mean that it is.

It’s legacy damage, there would be no point in removing now it because it would be pointless. Doesn’t change the fact that it was meant as a pierce/cold hybrid at first and it was changed much later. So not really a good example of what you are trying to prove.

Plenty of sets support 2 damage types, but that doesn’t mean it is meant to perform at an equal level for both.

Also, Crate tends to make a lot of items have damage types that the set or standalone item clearly doesn’t support. Specially when the set converts one damage type to another.

And no, they are not the same thing. The pierce in Rancor isn’t being eaten by another damage type like in a lot sets and standalone items, it’s actually the other way around. If they didn’t wanted to be a pierce weapon, why chaos and vit to pierce on PB, global vit to pierce and 20% pierce RR to DS? You are gonna tell me that this is not meant as a pierce weapon?

[x1x1x1x2]

yes

It’s a joke but there’s no harm, right? Zantai knows that it’d a joke cause he’s reading but if he really does it then he gets all of my praises. It won’t happen tho, too much animation changes:p

[Zantai]

It’s certainly a creative use of itemization, but it’s also incredibly unintuitive for that same reason (ex. gotta stack Vitality/Chaos damage instead of Pierce to boost flat damage).

In regards to spam Pierce casters, I’m not sure every damage type necessarily needs every archetype of character to exist.

I’ll have to think about the Pierce setup for this weapon, but I would not try to keep it supported if it means the primary function of the item has to suffer for it.

[sir_spanksalot]

The pierce in Rancor isn’t being eaten by another damage type like in a lot sets and standalone items, it’s actually the other way around. If they didn’t wanted to be a pierce weapon, why chaos and vit to pierce and 20% pierce RR to DS?

I’m not disagreeing with you that it can’t be used as a pierce weapon, I’m saying that it would be suboptimal to use it in that manner outside of spam PB.

That’s all.

just because something can be done, doesn’t mean that that’s the best thing to do.

In other words, it is first and foremost meant to be a bleed-based weapon, not a pierce weapon.

First and foremost are the keywords here. I.e. - pierce is auxillary bonus damage.

[sir_spanksalot]

It’s certainly a creative use of itemization, but it’s also incredibly unintuitive for that same reason (ex. gotta stack Vitality/Chaos damage instead of Pierce to boost flat damage).

I think that can be said of any build. E.g. Stack relevant flat damage, and voila - success.

The difficulty lies in how one goes about maximizing this, and that’s where creativity comes in.

I’ll have to think about the Pierce setup for this weapon, but I would not try to keep it supported if it means the primary function of the item has to suffer for it.

Sure. Again, it’s your call. I’m just here giving my 2 cents worth - but I do want to add that there are ways of keeping the primary function of the build while preserving spam PB.

That’s all.

[sir_spanksalot]

Just a joke to break the tension (if any):

[mad_lee]

Nightblade has pierce RR and with Devouring Swarm Trickster becomes a double RR class for the Rancor? Seems to me the devs are going out of their way to make it a pierce weapon along with being bleed. So yes, it makes it a pierce weapon.

Pierce base it’s just a useless bonus here, it’s tiny. Weapon can be used as melee for Bleeding builds or as caster stick for PB builds. There is Naadan’s Reach if you want to go melee with 2h-Pierce.

[thejabrixone]

I’m not sure every damage type necessarily needs every archetype of character to exist.

You are absolutely right.
While you’re at it, please do take a look at both inashkor’s head offhand and decree of circle five dagger.

Physical caster with offhand will never ever work as long as armor mechanic exist. Pierce got better chance at this.

[sir_spanksalot]

@Norzan: I was thinking about your concerns regarding how damage reduction to PB on rancor might affect pierce PB nuke.

Well, what you could do is add flat pierce damage to PB on rancor to compensate for this damage reduction.

That way if I use untransmuted PB, I’ll suffer no net loss in DPS, and conversely, spam pierce PB will still be able to get nerfed

[thejabrixone]

I am personally thinking that spamable pierce PB is the most obvious route of rancor because spam PB is always perform better than CD PB. No matter what damage type.

I think it will be a shame to destroy this variant just because it’s not intended. So I just propose to tone the damage instead while making it easier to build. Like toning that % total damage down while giving it a casting speed or energy Regen.

[Rhylthar]

My 6 cents.

Can´t say much about PB, I don´t use Rancor for this. But please don´t touch all other things. Rancor already got a nerf (-Physical Resistance, -% RR to Devouring Swarm) and 100 % Piercing, Vitality Conversion to Pierce and Pierce RR really should stay for Bleeding Builds. There are only 2 legendary Melee 2H-Weapons for Bleeding (iirc) and Guillotine is for Soldier/Necromancer Bleeding Builds and Rancor for all things Shaman…and Piercing Damage is there for ADctH.

[sir_spanksalot]

But please don´t touch all other things

I’d be surprised if this came to pass, rhylthar. As you can see in the thread, most of the changes being discussed are aimed at rancor’s PB mod + frenetic throw transmutor.

Thus my suggestion is to change the damage modifier provided by the weapon from 50% to 30%.

A 20% decrease in DPS should theoratically increase its current clear time by 20%, allowing it to perform in that 6:30 range.

That being said, I also wish to preserve the possibility of making a bleed PB nuker. So I would also suggest adding a flat bleeding damage modifier to PB on rancor to compensate for the reduction of the total damage modifier.

Alternatively, one could also simply add a modifier to rancor which will REDUCE the total number of projectiles on PB by 1.

^ @norzan: I suggest you read OP a little more carefully

[Rhylthar]

Yeah, therefore only 6 cents. I would have thrown heavy bucks in here if it was about the other things.

[Norzan]

Reducing the total damage mod would nerf Bleed PB builds. -1 from on that suggestion.

@sir_spanksalot You would have to add a ton of bleed to Rancor to compensate the loss of 20% total damage to PB. 20% total damage is a lot. Same for compensating the pierce damage loss.

[sir_spanksalot]

You would have to add a ton of bleed to Rancor to compensate the loss of 20% total damage to PB. 20% total damage is a lot.

Sure. But that’s simply a number game isn’t it? The magnitude of the value which would need to be added to preserve bleed PB has no bearing on how difficult/easy it will be to implement said change.

Same for compensating the pierce damage loss.

Ditto for pierce.

EDIT - one could simply just take 20% of the base bleed + pierce damage of 26/16 PB and use that.

[banana_peel]

Does your build have any room for improving defenses? Because in its current form obscene dmg is the only thing holding it together and 20% reduction will kill it.

What do you think about 25% modifier instead of 50% plus 15% enemy dmg reduction to PB on Rancor?

[sir_spanksalot]

Does your build have any room for improving defenses? Because in its current form obscene dmg is the only thing holding it together and 20% reduction will kill it.

Yes. Look at the naked setup in the guide.

20% DR will not kill the build I think. And I say this because I’ve tested this spec with -38% casting speed (aka the equivalent of -20% DPS)

What do you think about 25% modifier instead of 50% plus 15% enemy dmg reduction to PB on Rancor?

I think that’ll make pierce PB too strong. You’ll become unkillable with SR set.