[Feedback] Retaliation Drain Essence, performance and overview

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

Side information

Since the last nerf to DE people started to think it’s unplayable anymore and not worth building around. There were thoughts about increasing the damage DE does (not only here on the forum), others said it’s still “OP” and few of us just thought it’s still okay or good.

Overview and my experience:

After the nerf hit, I went forward to check what did exactly happen with DE. At first, DE looked like it is totally not worth playing, but it was because I only looked at the damage I deal. Then I added two and two, realized I am able to sometimes tick for over 200k, reminded myself this is huge as I have ~123k retaliation damage with perma buffs only. Overall DPS vs. melee enemies varied between 200k and 400k (getting hit while ticking DE), which, I think, is not that high nor low. I needed a while till I realized how strong DE is, as the healing it provides allowed me to achieve things I could only do with a super tanky character with not too much damage. Facetanking Secret Bosses, facetanking Ravager, even SR 65 - 75.

The life drain started to bother me, as there were only specific moments where I HAD to move a little from a pool of enemy damage. Even reflect barrage (3 reflective monsters + Fabius on Blade Barrier with nothing else around) didn’t stand a chance with the massive drain I pulled off.

My setup had basically BiS MI’s, but even with only random shield, which didn’t increase my damage at all, and other MI’s being only resist fillers the healing was still the same - allowed me to facetank Lokarr, John and Ravager. The setup in general has still a HUGE room for improvement - can pull off more defense or damage, but I didn’t actually bother fixing stuff because it already seemed too strong to me.

Videos:

Side note: Videos are sped up because otherwise you’d see screenshots. You can slow it down to 0.5 in Youtube to see normal speed. My PC is shitty, and nothing can help with those stutters (setting everything to low doesn’t really fix anything, I maybe gain like 10 frames in chill places where are no monsters, other than that I sit on 23 frames instead of 20). I am sometimes going to the game menu because my PC freezes time to time, and I do that to avoid unexpected HP drops, which usually are deadly or result into death.

John: Had to just avoid overstack of ground damage that he planted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YicDJpziJgs

Lokarr: Had -20% Casting Speed mutator, therefore the fight was about 20% slower. On top of that, I fucked at some point and Lokarr shred me to low HP, so I had to use a potion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4gfjChkiN0

Ravager: I actually only missclicked the one potion there. You can see further in the video that I dropped to like 2k HP and didn’t use a potion, even though it was available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-UWCzPpyTc

SR 70: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j64VtHk2T-g

SR 71: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIU57uscKFw

SR 72 (didn’t press recording)

SR 73: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92ki_DRmW8

SR 74: (file corrupted)

SR 75: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHKlF43dVb4

My general thoughts and suggestions if it comes to DE:

Damage-wise, it’s okay/strong, but the healing is way too high. You can heal all damage you receive even when facing only bosses+, which is, in some cases, overpowered.

Right now, DE can pull off 10 + 18 + 7 % ADCtH, which is 35% of the damage. Average ticks are 100k and casting speed on a tanky spec doesn’t extend 140% (retaliation isn’t a thing for squishy builds, so, no matter what you do, a non-tanky spec for retaliation DE won’t work). Straight up nerfing DE, doesn’t matter if the damage or healing, will kill this skill. If changes will be planned, there must be some kind of compensation, even QoL would be a solid option.

What would I change about DE?

  • Reduce the ADCtH by about 8 - 10%. To avoid only nerfing it, add +20% casting speed as a modifier to DE to increase the damage. You can check why not adding % RDAtA below!!!
  • Remove ADCtH form the amulet, reduce RDAtA to 6% (from 8), increase total damage modifier to 65% and add 50 - 75% casting speed modifier to Drain Essence.
  • Reduce the ADCtH to -10% (negative ADCtH, to reduce overall healing), add 1% RDAtA to Spectral shield.

RDAtA = Retaliation Damage Added to Attack

All channeled skills, except for Eye or Reckoning, deal damage every 0.3 second with 100% casting speed (base values, no bonuses), which is 3.34 damage ticks per second. Adding one percent of RDAtA effectively adds 3% (rounded down) more retaliation damage per second, if you manage to get your CS to 200, your damage is increased by 6.67% of your RDAtA, we can round it down again to 6% damage increase.

Assuming we’re using FoI or DE (Flames of Ignaffar or Drain Essence), both have 14% RDAtA from items, and we have 100 000 retaliation damage, we deal 46.76% RDAtA per second (let’s round it down to 46%), which is 46 000 damage per second. Adding 1% RDAtA increases the damage by 3% (as mentioned above), up to 49 000, or rather 50 000, if we round it down after adding the values. With 100% CS, we deal 46 000 damage (50 with 1% RDAtA increase) which increases up to 92 000 (100 000) damage per second with 200% CS (49 000 and 98 000 if you want to know rounded down values before adding the percentage increase in the RDAtA). That’s the main reason increasing the RDAtA is pretty dangerous if it comes to buffs.

I rounded everything down to make it seem weaker, where in fact the damage values will be much higher.

Now, I’ll randomly compare FoI to DE. They both deal the same damage, but DE does its job way better because it even heals you. WEAPON DAMAGE DOESN’T MATTER ON RETALIATION BUILDS! I’d suggest to increase RDAtA of FoI to at least 20% (currently has 6% RDAtA in Pagar’s Betrayal and 8% in Consumption of Agrivix) to make it compete with DE. Bear in mind that DE can affect way more targets as it spreads way wider and FoI hits only in a cone.

2

First of all, I salute your detailed tests and ideas.
I am interested in these changes but have a few questions and My thoughts.

  • Attach the Grim tools link for the build you used in the video.
    [li]My Retal DE DK is 173% (on proc 183%). And if you change the glove and the ring, it will be 200%.[/li]Is your idea of reducing RDAtA and giving CS in compensation worth more than the lost RDAtA in my construction?
    [li]I agree with your claim that there is too much recovery. This is one of the reasons this build is boring and boring.[/li]It’s super safe, but the damage displayed is low, I just click the 1 button and sometimes kite, and it doesn’t change much.
    I cast OG, WC, and MoT as needed, but they are dull and boring because they don’t change much visually compared to other kiting casters.
    [li]Have you tried Cruseble?I cleared 151 - 170 in about 11 minutes.(non buffer/banner). The other person’s Retal DE Opp was 8 minutes (3 buffers/1 banner). [/li]What about top tier AA builds and pet builds? They certainly don’t recover as much as Retal DE.
    But they do more damage, crush enemies faster, and clear content faster.
    Retal DE recording time is average. It’s not bad, but it’s not particularly good.
    However, I think it is good considering the safety.
    If you wish, I will test the Retal DE DK again with Full buff/banner and upload the video.
    Also, if you need character data to test by yourself, please send us a DM.

    [li]What I feel is whether these changes will make Retal DE interesting. [/li]To be honest, I originally felt that DE itself was a boring skill.
    FG came and I found this build fun with huge damage and speed. But it was definitely OP.

    I prefer to lose the AdctH(and don’t need to increase the number of targets.) from amy and shields and get some RDAtA back.
    While the stability is lost, the damage will increase greatly. And it makes it possible to clear the content quickly.
    At the same time, retaliation itself will need to be coordinated.
    I think Retal WL is still strong, so I think RDAtA/Flat Retal could be adjusted, but I don’t know if that will actually happen.

    Or, as someone said on another thread, the idea of giving a Proc skill would be interesting. Special visual effects can reduce boredom.

    [li]However, the current results say that Z is as intended, so I don’t mind staying current. [/li]This is because the current state of super safety is one of the completed styles.
    The current state is not clear speed which can be called OP, and some people like this state.
    but, I just won’t play with boring builds. and it doesn’t affect anyone but me.
  • I agree with Buff on Retal FoI. If Buff makes the Retal FoI as strong as the Top Tier, I can completely forget the time when Retal DE was OP.
3

This is not a build showcase, there’s no reason to post builds. I can already tell you focused on casting speed in your build, therefore it’s much squishier and could also pull off more retaliation.

Crucible is way too boring and the last time I played it I cleared 170 easily. There’s no reason to speedrun it because it does not prove anything - you get good mutators you can do it in 5 minutes, you get shitty ones you clear it minutes later. I actually think that SR 75 is way harder than Crucible, and two bosses in SR equal to almost a whole wave in Crucible 170, as in Crucible you often clear stuff “one by one” (if I may say so) and therefore you never face a whole wave (if you did, over 90% of the builds that can do Crucible 170 would basically not be able to do it).

The mere reason I posted my feedback was not because I think it’s OP, too strong, too weak, needs changes but only because the amount of healing bothered me. There were plenty of situations where I almost died because of a stun chain or freeze (which I had only 30% resist), but one tick of DE literally fully healed even 14k HP (iirc, you can even see in some of the videos I posted that my HP dropped to low and I drained it back in a flash). I know Zantai said it’s in the state it should be, but I think he (of rather the whole Crate team) didn’t actually see what it can do due to the fact no one plays this build anymore, because it’s (quote) “dead”.

4

My build has enough tank specs, but CS is the same as 173%. You wrote casting speed on a tanky spec doesn’t extend 140% so I was wondering what configuration you tested it with.
And I apologize at the same time. I somehow misread ADCtH and RDAtA. I agree that ADCtH reduces.
I agree with Cruseble and SR. I prefer SR to Cruseble.
But Cruseble’s clear time is an indicator. If you feel you don’t need to show it, you don’t need it. It’s just my interest.
I agree with you on the last point. As long as they are attacking, they recover to the maximum in an instant. It is almost immortal. I’m bored.

5

Healing back to full in an instant is basically a DE trademark. The difference is that retal DE is on the tanky side and the healing effect is felt more cause you’re oneshot less often. While I don’t disagree with reducing the lifesteal, I’m more in favor of just reducing the tankiness by moving the DE mod on the shield to an offhand. Tho I think crate should compensate by creating another endgame retal devotion that doesn’t require a shield. Maybe attak seru (no basis aside from being purple, really) for elemental retal or light of empyrion for fire retal (tho that would be OP for shield builds who can get both obelisk and emyrion).