[Feedback] Weaker flat damage jewellery augments: Fire and Physical

[Maya]

As a non-pet player, yes, I’d assume they are afflicted the most by the armor issue. Not sure what the solution is that doesn’t overwhelmingly buff other archetypes via Phys->X conversion.

I assume giving armor shred to pets should work.

[Ceno]

Would it? Because all sources are evaluated independently, you’d either need a helluva lot of shred or a helluva lot of % damage. Or both. Again, not a pet player, but I wouldn’t have pegged reducing enemy armor to be a reasonable solution. Even if you got rid of, say, 600 armor, enemies would still have much more than most solo sources tend to accrue on player builds. Though I can imagine some funny multiplayer SR strats where one pet deletes enemy armor and then a Cadence lad rolls up and removes screens from existence…

[Maya]

Would it? Because all sources are evaluated independently, you’d either need a helluva lot of shred or a helluva lot of % damage. Or both. Again, not a pet player, but I wouldn’t have pegged reducing enemy armor to be a reasonable solution. Even if you got rid of, say, 600 armor, enemies would still have much more than most solo sources tend to accrue on player builds. Though I can imagine some funny multiplayer SR strats where one pet deletes enemy armor and then a Cadence lad rolls up and removes screens from existence…

I mean, yes numbers would dictate effectiveness.

Giving +% physical dmg also should work since there aren’t any pet items that convert Pet dmg into Physical.

[sir_spanksalot]

Not sure what the solution is that doesn’t overwhelmingly buff other archetypes via Phys->X conversion.

In my uneducated opinion, the solution ought to be IT damage.

Since DoT applied by multiple pets stack, this seems like the most straightforward solution

[Dioarchet]

Something still doesn’t make sense to me.

Suppose a character has 2000% physical damage bonus total. Then 10 physical damage would become 10*(1 + 2000%/100%) = 210 damage. Typical armor values for endgame bosses are over 2000, so wouldn’t that paltry 210 damage get fully absorbed? What factor(s) am I missing here that would increase that damage by the order of magnitude necessary just to pass armor?

In fact as a general point, I (still) don’t quite get how players can hit up to 1 million crits from base flat damage totaling only in the hundreds or maybe around a thousand. I mean, that’s an over 1000x increase in damage. Where and how exactly does that come from?

After years of playing GD this is still a mystery to me.

[Ceno]

What factor(s) am I missing here that would increase that damage by the order of magnitude necessary just to pass armor?

It’s not about increasing armor beyond that point, it’s that armor is only 70% effective without +% Armor Absorption, of which all monsters only have 0%.

30% always gets through.

https://www.grimdawn.com/guide/gameplay/combat/#q19

Edit: In more mathematical terms:

If DMG > Armor, damage taken = (DMG - Armor) + ((DMG - Armor) * 0.3) = 1.3 * (DMG - Armor)
If DMG < Armor, damage taken = DMG * 0.3

DMG -> Incoming Damage

[Maya]

Not sure what the solution is that doesn’t overwhelmingly buff other archetypes via Phys->X conversion.

In my uneducated opinion, the solution ought to be IT damage.

Since DoT applied by multiple pets stack, this seems like the most straightforward solution

While this also works, IT can get converted though. So it will also buff Pet elemental dmg.

[DenisMashutikov]

It’s not about increasing armor beyond that point, it’s that armor is only 70% effective without +% Armor Absorption, of which all monsters only have 0%.

As I remember (Unfortunately I havn’t game at hand) Ultimate difficulty adds 7,5% Armor absorbtion.

What factor(s) am I missing

Besides, Critical damage multiplyer calculates before pass armor.

[sir_spanksalot]

7,5% Armor absorbtion

How can one confirm this?

[Evil_Baka]

The worth of flat Physical damage against armour was discussed sometime ago and even had Zantai chime in to clarify a few things. It’s worth looking over this post and the 2 below it for some insight.

[Norzan]

It’s honestly starting to get frustrating seeing people saying that stacking multiple sources of flat physical is somehow counterproductive because it means you will do less damage. The whole game is balanced around the fact that enemy armor block each source of physical damage, meaning you want to stack as many flat physical sources as possible.

I mean, when even a dev chimes in to clarify things, some people still think stacking multiple flat physical sources is still a bad thing. After the dev told them that’s not true at all.

[sir_spanksalot]

i don’t think it’s ineffective. i just think it’s more ineffective than finding ways to do a cunning dump.

I would rather stack %damage on a physical build than flat damage because of how the armor mechanics work.

Assuming i am indeed able to pull off a 107 cunning dump, i’ll then turn to look at ways of increasing flat damage

[ya1]

this is patently not true, as the game (and enemy Phys resist) has been balanced around the aforementioned armor bug

What’s not true? Phys builds do have generally higher wpn dmg.

The game might have been “balanced” around it but this thread argues it’s balanced poorly, and imo the augment is evidence to that, together with the fact that physical damage is hardly competitive with powerhouses such as lightning, fire, cold, pierce, aether, vitality, etc.

[DenisMashutikov]

How can one confirm this?

Check records/game/balancingadjustment_mp+difficulty_enemies01.dbr, DefensiveAbsorptionModifier parameter.

[Dioarchet]

If DMG > Armor, damage taken = (DMG - Armor) + ((DMG - Armor) * 0.3) = 1.3 * (DMG - Armor)

I get your point, but your math is wrong. It’s supposed to be DMG - 0.7*Armor.

Ultimate difficulty adds 7,5% Armor absorbtion.

Then, in Ultimate, the 3 physical damage Spanks mentioned above really should be 2.25 physical damage.

I agree with everyone who posted that while physical damage may have been balanced in the past, keeping it balanced in the future requires the devs to be aware of the armor bug and work around it or compensate for it. As evidenced by how weak Steelbloom Powder apparently is, this hasn’t happened (at least not perfectly).

As a constructive suggestion, I propose eliminating the flat damage bonus on Steelbloom Powder altogether and boosting the OA bonus to 4%.

[mad_lee]

The game might have been “balanced” around it but this thread argues it’s balanced poorly, and imo the augment is evidence to that, together with the fact that physical damage is hardly competitive with powerhouses such as lightning, fire, cold, pierce, aether, vitality, etc.

I am also not sure in what way game is “balanced” around this stupid bug. From my experience of playing physical builds in end-game - it’s one the weakest damage types currently.

[mad_lee]

I hate to necro this but @Zantai, have you decided against buffing Fire and Physical jewellery augments in the end?

[Voradork]

Seems like a non-issue to me. Fire is one of the (if not most) common dmg types, therefore there are inherently more places to get % to fire/burn convert to fire and flat fire damage.

[mad_lee]

Fire is one of the (if not most) common dmg types, therefore there are inherently more places to get % to fire/burn convert to fire and flat fire damage.

Have you read the op post, mate? And no, you are wrong, I am afraid, flat fire sources are hard to come by and it’s not about %damage (it’s the same 50% on every augment, it’s just some augments are better than others).

[Nery]

I hate to necro this but @Zantai, have you decided against buffing Fire and Physical jewellery augments in the end?

You reminded Z to lock the thread for good