You are comparing SR40 (in the “before” time period), an extreme niche area, not intended for typical use (you got no item rewards) and for which you needed a lot of build tweaks to even survive. You compare that with FoA Altar, the dominant new difficulty gauge, for which all players, especially older ones, will try to benchmark their builds. These are not comparable metrics, imo. Crucible is a filler mode.
Also, I didn’t zone in on the new mechanics; I specifically left new mechanics out of it if you reread what I wrote. To sum it up again:
Many old builds (let’s not focus only on the ageing sets I mentioned) got none or very few new tools or assets that would even make them enticing or eligible for late-game FoA. Especially since you not only need a bump in DPS but, critically, a huge upgrade to defences and survivability (thus a lot of resources). My point is not to discuss how many builds should be able to make the deep end game, but that the end game bar is high (good) and the ceiling (including farming, min-maxing, rerolling etc) for many old builds seems low (not good). Current ascension pool available (specifically for weapons, amulets) FEELS like it does not do many favours in these cases.
Anyway, you got your answer in the latest Dev update, quote:
In v1.3.1, we will be performing our first major tuning pass, which means buffs to underperforming builds and items, and nerfs where things have fallen too far out of line
yes, and i’m doing so for a reason; because people are pushing it - so it had to be hammered home, several times “sr 31 is the balancing metric, not high sr, not even sr36 despite it getting loot”
no no no
that’s the problem.
Stop thinking “didnt’ get new”; they didnt’ get adjustet. They did get new, the just didnt’ get certain of the new ones (OS etc). And people didn’t adjust everything either, but took old, and expected clear sr 200 “by default”… - this is wrong on multiple levels, and to me/imo should be obvious that it’s so and shouldnt’ be treated as norm accepted “because sr 200 is not = old sr 31” so you can’t expect this without making adjustment and even then you cant’ expect the parity… - so it’s fine if you get blocked off at cruci 190 while using pots etc
but it’s the opposite… The end game bar is not high, that’s exactly why the floor can’t be raised by much, or it invalidates it entirely.
And the ceiling can’t be high both directly because of that, but because floor balance is determined by build ceiling… They are directly connected as balance is based in “top” builds (not meaning top20 specific but strong/meta builds determine nerfs or even buffs too and those are considered minmax realm for end purposes)
So if you’re making cruci 200 the default floor, and not the “high endgame ceiling”; there is no endgame ceil, there is only a floor… That’s the problem, same for Ascendant and SR. New getting added, default floor getting perceived to be moved instead of the ceiling raised. - if the floor follows the ceiling we end up right back where we were asking for a veteran mode for ascendant and crucible because there is no longer any end “mode”/challenge , everything just automatically followed with. And that’s the exact thing when the expectation is a default old build can automatically compete equally in the new and final peak end… “it didn’t move” then
not really, it doesn’t actually state anything specific or “new”. As usual it depends on what is meant by underperforming or too far out of line - and we never know that until specific thresholds are established
*of which as i already said earlier, i expect it to be almost naive to not get powercreep game wide and new end content trivialized by not maintaining a line in the sand to have a default lower floor. (eg people backdooring in sr 36 feedback already when 31 was the line years ago - “the people dont’ want a content/challenge ceiling”)
I don’t understand why you keep pushing the CR200 argument in every answer. It really does not serve as a counterargument since a) the Uru CR200 guy’s point has already settled. b) excluding some testers, I rarely see many CR200 discussion points, and c) I considered it a filler mode and less relevant (if you intended to argue about my answer)
Stop thinking “didnt’ get new”; they didnt’ get adjustet. They did get new, the just didnt’ get certain of the new ones (OS etc).
That’s exactly what i implied. E.g., a bloodrager set getting some minor bleed damage bonus would not make bleed trickster a new late-game monster. I said again and again that i was leaving OS and other new mechanics out of it.
but it’s the opposite… The end game bar is not high, that’s exactly why the floor can’t be raised by much, or it invalidates it entirely.
How do you support that the end game is not high currently…I must be reading a different forum because:
Crate has consistently toned down damage, esp. for bosses, since launch
People and extreme late-game testers mention that necessary HP bar is raised. Also reports mention that even 3k armor and >>3k DA feel papery.
Sheets posted by a user mentioning that you need a lot of DA to be competitive in juiced
Hardcore players reporting difficulties, needing to be constantly on their toes to sidestep spells.
These are the general notions of the forum (I am sure there will be some high skilled gamers that will be quick to argue against)
Regarding ceiling, there is absolutely no ceiling defined since we are in an ongoing balancing period of the batch, and most strong builds will possibly be nerfed, directly and indirectly. Thus he current strong builds are not an indicator of the actual final floor.
To close this since it dragged, I guess i doesn’t t matter if you and I don’t know what “underperforming” means, as long as Crate does (which i am sure they do). And if you “fear” in a way that the true endgame will be figured out or steamrolled by a lot of builds, lets remember that the game is not intended only for the top 1% with deep knowledge and infinite resources.
cruci 200 matters because it’s part of end and end power/balancing (i’ve no clue why you don’t think so?)
A, doesn’t matter if that 1 guy settled, it was still raised, and is still raised
B; because even if you don’t see them, doesn’t mean it’s not used as metric
C, again, doesn’t matter what you consider, what matters is actual application, and cruci has always been part of end considering for build/buffs/feedback and balancing, even if more ended leaning towards sr it was still used and is being reused now again, so it matters. (and would regardless since it’s part of new end increase)
which is also not what i said argued. Potion and Ascension affixes are still new, so count in powerboost application. But it’s still not the only new; because new items got added “outside the set”, new modifiers, new “tech”, which is part of power adaptation… - which was a key part in highlighting expectation of taking an unchanged “old” build and have it clear all new peak content…“sets only take up 4-5 slots in a build you still have multiple others to work with”
MC, for normal and elite, not ascendant, or even SR (excluding the unintended missing penalty for FoA additions)
“that is not end”, that’s levelling/campaign.
not for OG enemies, but certain specific/individual FoA outliers or as they say “new random 1shot spikes” - and, imo part of that issue is unwillingness to accept changes or adaptation of approach (like facetank etc great example being UK bolder complaints to me )
*edit 1shot insert, i don’t mean to imply that random 1shot spike potential should be the general norm/default acceptable, but sans couple bugs like Bero or Dread it’s also not what i gauge is the FoA norm. And a lot of it seem to fall in the UK boulder category, “disagreeing with dmg potential/potential of specific high tuned attacks that can be controlled or avoided”(from largely not wanting to bother controlling or avoiding them) - as mentioned earlier ex Beros bugged DB is/was obvious bs and should be fixed, similar to Dread’s current weird thingy. But imo, beginning to nerf UK’s boulder etc similar boss types, is just a step towards the old facetank simulator meme /end edit insert
Juicing only affects DA requiement if you use the OA modifier, “this makes sense then”, no?, but has little otherwise impact if not using the OA modifier, like just dmg and hp (for several of the good rewards). - it also matters extra in the sense of if it’s even worth to increase DA to counter, or if 5x OA modifier scales oa so much DA becomes pointless to chase, insert “why old HP meta chars are functional” without 3500-4k da, because the old HP stack works/buffers/HP soak adds options.
which is not and “end” Ascension or SR related, but FoA boss tuning related - of which i agree that it should be hard, and enemy nerfs shouldnt’ be the norm(but i’m an outlier there)
So it seems like the mixup here is not that endgame ceiling got increased “high”, FoA enemy scaling is different, and again mixing up what people are actually saying; raising floor because disliking a ceiling. - these are two very different things, and why i keep mentioning it.
The ceiling isn’t defined because it never was. So mixing up floor vs ceiling.
Before the other 2 avenue’s ceiling was default/automatic, happened because of where the floor was, Cruci 170 and sr 31 became the floor for what buffs and nerfs was based on. This automatically invalidated MC (nothing wrong with that i suppose), but it didn’t establish a ceiling because there simply was no ceiling in Cruci as the floor was already the limit, and in SR it was “limitless”(sr 84?)
never claimed as such, and i think it’s weird to even propose so
Again, it’s very very important to keep the distinction between additional and optional end challenge, vs regular content, or “this is meant for everything”(floor) “this is the peak end, not meant for everything”.
So the only distinction that matters/will matter is where Crate puts that. If new (juiced) Ascendant become the default catch all Ultimate, sr 36++ and Cruci 200 floor vs ceiling etc.
Sr 31 was never just for the 1%, but it was also not the ceiling. Ascendant is default its own new, and like old cruci 170 or Ult MC comes with own inherent limit, so it just depends if it gets treated as floor or ceiling (±juice factor ofc) - and imo floor treatment would be bad/“then we don’t have a new end challenge”, and will need a veteran setting for our veteran setting
^similarly why i’m against raising the SR floor too, as that will just cascade out too in terms of powercreep, even if SR will still always have a kind of ceiling from being “endless”
Everything looks good and should work on paper, but somehow the build lacks both tankiness and damage. This set alone should make me dangerous. But even combined with the additional damage conversions and high lifesteal, it doesn’t really work on high difficulties.
I think it’s because physical builds needs much more stuff to be viable: reflect reduction and high OA to apply Assassins Mark. So in most cases it compensated with op procs on default attack. But I can’t have them on Eye of Reckoning.
At the same time, this build lacks natural survivability, as Oathkeeper primarily gains it from carrying a shield. Necromancer’s sustain comes from vitality damage and default attack procs which I don’t have. I could try to get vitality to phys conversion for Syphon Souls so I will get proper lifesteal from it, but I’m not sure this will really help.
So I think Warborn is just a weak set for using Eye of Reckoning while it’s focused on that skill.
Maybe I should try to wear a shield, but what the point, if Eye of Reckoning won’t proc all those shield stuff from Oathkeeper.
check Lee’s?the old top20 setup, there is so much going on in that link there (no maul, flat RR, low speed; mixing skills, don’t have comps or res fixed, low CC res/lot of basic “meta” stuff not sorted out)
not saying it’s not underperforming, iirc Lee said exactly that - with a different comparison metric. But there’s a huge difference between having something workable, and something missing 50% dmg +survival i think hence suggesting to take a look at the old setup, because that will cream Veteran completely, even if it wont be currently Ascendant Ult/SR/Cruci competitive with other new strong stuff.
So we have different views on build. My point is to use Eye of Reckoning as source for procing tons of stuff on attack thanks to its high speed.
He gave up on that, focused on raw Eye damage only with on hit procs.
So his build is viable but ignoring nature of Eye of Reckoning using its like side stuff mostly.
even if it wont be currently Ascendant Ult/SR/Cruci competitive with other new strong stuff.
old build (1.1.4.1), likely before maul had armour shred
that’s not what EoR is designed for - so that might be where the core of the problem lies.
my point is that it works on Ascendant… to the top gang/meta gang it’s just not equal to other top stuff… So there’s a big different between something clearing SR31 on Ult (still) vs doing so in 3mins because other builds does, if that makes sense? To meta gang a build doing sr31 in 5mins is “unacceptable” because it’s below their 3-4min standards, but it’s still clearing it - which is a far removed difference from “can’t clear veteran because didnt’ scale eor” if that makes sense?
I got it, and I’m mostly agreed. But my concern is about a bit different thing.
Most sets solely give great performance, especially on skills they’re focused on. But Warborn while even focused on EoR, doesn’t feel great.
Getting set is like achieving some pinnacle, because it’s difficult to get. Even couple items boosts char greatly. So complete set has to give feeling of greatness. Warborn starts working only after getting support by perfect combo of items.
But I will try Maul. So problem comes because it has low weapon damage that is also reduced by enemy armor? So multiple high speed low damage attacks turn to zero?
part of the reason it doesnt’ feel great is the way physical eor interacts with armour mechanic, this gets “accented” when you dual wield, both because extra armour interaction, but also because EoR doesn’t scale truly on dualwield - which is why (full set) Warborn EoR has gotten a ton of feedback to address the small source issue, (now we get got reduced enemy armour rating as part of the phys dmg mechanic conflict fix).
But you can’t just invest in EoR as a “proccer” and expect great things, even if we put the intricasy of phys v armour and small flat dmg/source and pseudo dual wield aside. It’s not meant to be a “proccer” but a full fledged main skill to invest in. You’re likely never going to be able to get enough item or devo procs to make up for that. You can’t trigger stuff like wps because it’s not a DAR (having a few points in RF doesn’t change/enable that) and will never be able to. Shield procs and shield defence is also not an issue or solution because shields are its own whole can of worms, at most would/could contribute a tiny bit of bonus passive dmg here, but technically not a huge dmg loss either because EoR doesn’t scale fully on DW anyway: But just slapping on a shield doesn’t change EoR being meant as a main dmg skill or its scaling(speed) nor how shields aren’t a default defence/life saver so expecting a shield to just fix tankiness is not gonna be a universal impact either, even if you can use it as stat stick fine on EoR.
This might be sorta a simplification (more so when it doesn’t default fix dw phys EoR). But banana? someone in toxic gang/top20 thread once said to make phys dmg functional you need 3000% phys dmg to start with, while maxing cunning, and having bunch of RR too. And that’s like the “baseline” advice for all physical dmg build because of armour interaction . Add to that a skill that inherently scales highly on speed, and you’re missing 1/3rd speed too, while still dealing with the other stuff missing, before having to additionally deal with dw phys-armour mechanic on top, you’re gonna get a way worse impression, than the already “poorer meta” impression it then has https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5pS8NNMu5U when atleast functional on Ultimate
*i don’t know if meta gang has given up on 1h-dw Warborn EoR after 1.3/FoA release with what it brought to every other build, and small flat phys source spam just being unable to catch up to that, or if they’re gonna try feedback it again when the first full balancing PTR comes. But this might be where it was left off before v1.3 round [1.1.4.1-1.2.1.6] Physical Spin2win DW EoR Warlord when they switched to focusing on Warborn Cadence
*edit. again big difference in “poor” meta perception from being slower vs not functioning at all. Anything that runs 5 mins sr 31 is just too slow for topgang’s pov when they run SR 3.30-4min or faster, doesn’t mean it’s not working ofc, it’s just not on speed/clearance par with other fast meta builds
Sigh… you trying to force this crucible thing on my point just for the sake of arguing. My perspective, my experience, and my balance feedback, good or bad, newbish or not, relate to Ascendant, juiced altar, bosses, and celestials. If I were pressured, I would also bet that Crate currently focuses more on new campaign end-game balance than Crucible.
For the rest
not for OG enemies, but certain specific/individual FoA outliers or as they say “new random 1shot spikes” - and, imo part of that issue is unwillingness to accept changes or adaptation of approach (like facetank etc
I lost you completely on this. I said multiple times that I like the added challenge (and I feel the community agrees). Crate also likes challenge. We are (mostly) all on the same page here
Juicing only affects DA requirement if you use the OA modifier, “this makes sense then”, no?, but has little other impact if not using the OA modifier, like just dmg and hp (for several of the good rewards).
mi023 shows a juiced altar nemesis OA 3157 and SR37 OA 2871. Totems, keys and soulds i think provide %OA. DA is definitely not irrelevant. And before you strawman me to death; no, I don’t mean that every build should be able to hang around with 3.5k, just questioning the resource tradeoff a less defensive build should be able to make before thinking into going in juiced.
which is not and “end” Ascension or SR related, but FoA boss tuning related - of which i agree that it should be hard, and enemy nerfs shouldnt’ be the norm (but i’m an outlier there).
I am speaking out of my area since I am not an HC player, but again hardcore tools got a bit shafted. Turtle and Mehnir were not updated. Armor is a lot more important (thus more resources are consumed there). Circuit breakers, some of them, got the extension new toy. We got a new relic that is possibly the choice for most cases.
which is also not what i said argued. Potion and Ascension affixes are still new, so count in powerboost application. But it’s still not the only new;
This was my whole point, that i wrote 2000 words about. Which you almost dismissed in one sentence.
To sum up the argument on FoA w. altar (not CR):
Added challenge -->good (we agree)
Builds should be stressed more -->good (we agree)
Boss mechanics more advanced / no facetanking (after tuning)–>good (we agree)
Number of builds with ability to clear said endgame → You: few/ less that previous standard. Me: Not everything, but at least let us exploit builds and more importantly expand ascension bonuses on skills. Do not lock everything behind streamlined, fixed pathway builds. This is the essence of Grimdawn
Boss mechanics more advanced / no facetanking (after tuning)–>good (we agree)
I need to mention, that advanced mechanics can be hard to balance, because it can’t be dealt without core matter of game. Movements, animations wind up etc.
Plus so many builds are based on facetanking to deal consistent damage, so without it their damage will drop significantly.
And I think long complicated fights should be rewarded properly. Why sweat if I can grind something else? Same time additional unique gear on bosses can create more powercreep etc.
i’m not trying to force you into anything…
ffs, you jump in on me/“reply to me to a thing” where crucible was and is relevant, then somehow surprised i keep having Crucible be part of it thus “keep bringing it up”… it’s always there, regardless of your pov or sentiment, because it was always a part of balancing and meta and end concerns, and still is now “not jsut for me” (as could literally be seen by the guy bringing it in with Uro too)
You said endgame had been raised, because HP was raised/“certain builds felt paper”, i said it wasn’t from “challenge” /endgame ceiling being raised, but certain outlier enemies and certain attack’s scaling… - which doesn’t mean the ceiling as a whole, but fractions/outlier elements are increased(which they are then asking to get toned down) , so much for community liking the challenge eh?
the 3,5-4k exaggeration was directly linked to the key part missed… Which you bring up there; the OA increase is voluntary, therefor you can control which builds “needs” sky high DA, right? - it’s not a general ceiling then, let alone if it’s the worst/lesser desired reward ones. “we control it” /it’s extra extra optional, so there is not a general DA need based off that endgame
and that’s what i wish would be generally applicable mindset and acceptance wise, but seems like it’s not
sry, not sure what this pertains to. HC players don’t dictate balancing from wanting to be extra safe, never did. *doesn’t mean 0 consideration ofc. But if/when you’re used to “safe” and tanky, and encounter something new, and do not stop to consider it’s new, i have less sympathy if you “need to dance” - i know it doesnt’ apply to all HC players ofc, but even among those posts i’ve seen some crazy stuff/refusal to change notion/“expecting the default status quo” . Again some stuff seems borked, but other stuff seems like “used to x” therefor alteration bad, which i find extra puzzling from some of the HC posts made. (specially if you dont’ even play SC first to test bosses or are unwilling to die entirely)
^except “we”'re trying to (instantly) diminish that now, with content nerfs and build buffs right out the gate “hence me disagreeing”, because the increased challenge was the point of allure for FoA/Ascendant
i didn’t say few, i said not everything/“it becomes everything if it becomes the floor”
“let us exploit builds”, this can’t happen, if you have exploits you have an inherent power imbalance beyond just regular building. This is why exploits are the first “bugs” to be fixed and first balance areas that get polished out, so it’s easier to have a more even playing field for building. *assuming you meant actual exploit builds
yes… this has always been doable, and still is
and it’s part of the “problem”/concern. Memes are supposed to be more niche, but if the floor is set to X, this includes lesser “optimal” ones and memes, because it’s the content entry level. That is why it’s important to have a floor that’s lower than the ceiling, and not have them be one and the same, (like happened previously, and then still got moved and powercrept beyond that ).
by no facetanking isn’t meant you can’t ever stand still, it means you can’t stand 100% still against every and all attacks, easy example being Aleks meteor/Underking boulder style attacks; this should prompt a player reaction, instead of just shrugging it off on 98% of meta builds
this is also why i think it’s bad to raise the SR floor and increase SR loot reward, and would prefer neat rewarding encounters instead of just bulk reward v loot-time. (genuinely surprised how bad Nerfatal’s and Beronath’s loot chest are on Ascendant )
*but it also makes sense that there arent’ those rewards, exactly because what always happens/is already happening, X build just obliterates the content, “trivializing it” not making it a sweat fight so it would just be easy/“free” reward. It wouldnt’ really matter that 1 build has a tough 45-120secs ravager fight, when a dozen others just kill it in 20sec or less without looking twice at the hotbar. And it’s the the X build that gets used as comparison metric “this is where we should be/other builds should get”, instead of accepting maaaaybe that’s a bit out of line, because it removed all the sweat/challenge, thus can’t allow any (meaningful) reward, and moving YZ "most other"builds up to X, would then just entirely remove the sweat and challenge left in that encounter potential (sans boss redesign, which wont happen/entire idea of FoA was already being a redesign and we invalidated instantly )
I almost got annoyed with some of the potion modifiers being gated off to certain bosses, simply because how boring they were to obtain, it didnt’ even feel rewarding to get either, but at the same time you can’t make it a low drop rate since it makes it more of a chore to get, but also can’t gate it off to something super hard since everyone “needs” the potion modifier recipe for equality sake.
When i got my first Dread Mask it felt awesome, because it was on a non endgame encounter/during levelling in campaign so the fight was hard, and it gave a +1 all skill helmet that’s otherwise impossible to get until lvl 75?(ravager?). Then you do it in endgame and it feels pointless, and the reward is… less exciting, now it competes with modifier slots, sets, and you figure out it’s really only sweaty if it proper ambushes why you’re fighting something else or on a melee/eor char
I don’t know if it’s adequate, but atleast it gives good soul eccho/frag reward, so that’s something it has over bulk farming in SR i suppose (but that again then just becomes a metric of optimize ecchos/time and not actually special reward).
*i’m assuming some uniques will stay MC exclusive tho, even if new Nem stuff and sets got added to SR/Cruci still. (but if it’s as pointless a fight as Yurra/Avinnia it’s still not gonna feel cool or rewarding ofc)
I’m mostly agreed about facetanking. But I think facetanks can exist while they trade DPS for tankiness. And I think that maybe they should be able to shrug off nuke occasionally with long cd savers.
About bosses, floors and loot. We need to keep in mind, that there are players able to make any build and average players with couple half baked sets. And they have different views on challenges.
Complex bosses - I think such bosses can have two layered reward. 100% guaranteed items for players who want one-time challenge, and like 5-10-20% chance items for those who hunts for super rare gear. Such bosses will be intresting for both average players (fuh, I don’t want to do it second time) and top players (ok, 10 more attempts).
yes, that’s a fine sentiment to have to facetanking i think, and i think it’s one a lot of players have, but it often ends up being not “applied”. Be it powercreep, or just differing personal pov on what constitutes tanky enough to allow it.
Aleks meteor is likely the best example we have of that, with current Underking as contrast, one you can shrug off/have been able to shrug off for ages (for some reason) even tho wasn’t meant to and was scary originally. And now UK does exactly that role, and there is just a blanket 0 tolerance for it
The question is how much is enough, (pretty sure UK is bugged tho), because there are people running around in builds that even has me puzzled as to what the expectation was just eating a giant attack with health/stats that would make haul double ass as a SC player. If you get OHKO’d through 50k hp and comfy safe HC armour/phys res/DA etc chonk boi stats, there might be something wrong. - if you’re getting 1tapped in “current”/pre FoA softcore meta/"top20"stats, i’m totally okay with it and might even double check if the boss shouldn’t be buffed on other attacks too
as for half baked sets. Thing is, that doesn’t exclude your from endgame, it might just exclude you from the peakest part of it. And you can still get everything else in the game in “regular” endgame, there is nothing gated off to wave 200, 6x Altar modifier Ascendant or SR36 afaik. So it’s a choice to try and participate in that with a halfbaked end setup, that could perhaps easily do regular Ascendant or cruci 170 or sr 26-31’ish. Nothing is mandating you to clear the max end optional challenge.
As for chase items/loot distribution, i can’t say, the dilemma has been mentioned before that if it’s “useable” people want it, even if it’s 5%+hard content gated off, which means it “has” to end up being accessible, and “no one” wants non useable items (ex cosmetic pets) to farm for fun i was told/“it’s not an endgame reward” (- tho i am glad we did get some extra pet drops )
IMO, an implementation of full altar ascendant that fails to filter a decent number of setups is a failed endgame design. SR has the scaling to ensure everything will eventually crumble before its numbers, full altar ascendant should not be a comfortable default.
Yes and it is wrong. Buffed ascendant is on the level of SR 36. So that should be the test for builds SR 36-37. If a build can clear it consistently it is good. If not, buff it.
Almost no one is playing crucible compared to SR… Crucible is kinda irrelevenat. But top 20 gang likes it… They are pretty much the only ones…
That is even why they started to speedrun SR 30-31 because no one cares about crucible…
- so it had to be hammered home, several times “sr 31 is the balancing metric, not high sr, not even sr36 despite it getting loot”
, everything just automatically followed with. And that’s the exact thing when the expectation is a default old build can automatically compete equally in the new and final peak end… “it didn’t move” then
/end edit insert
(but that again then just becomes a metric of optimize ecchos/time and not actually special reward).
)