Game balance, the Meta and the audience

Neph1 · September 15, 2026, 5:28pm

ffs, you jump in on me/“reply to me to a thing” where crucible was and is relevant, then somehow surprised i keep having Crucible be part of it thus “keep bringing it up” ”… it’s always there, regardless of your pov or sentiment

Regardless of “your” sentiment, Crucible is certainly not as relevant as current FoA content, Ascendant, and altar difficulty manipulation. One is a massive campaign and map function overhaul; the other is a mode.

Maybe you/the veterans’ end-game balance assessment and strength gauge is heavily focused on CR 200; that is fine with me. Plenty of fun to be had with a stopwatch, zero cooldown spams, and 20 OS stacks.

In that case, I don’t know why we got into such a nonsense exchange, since my argument was clearly based on campaign ascendant end-game feeling. I certainly did not want to start an endless flip-flop discussion with test-bench modes, metric definitions, and possible pass/fail percentages of builds. Especially since there is no meta definition with the upcoming nerf.

My target was a bit simpler; log with 10 older builds, slap some ascendancies, swap a couple of items, up the notch in difficulty a bit, and evaluate their performance and behavior (or rather, the lack of it, as it turned out in many cases).

Again some stuff seems borked, but other stuff seems like “used to x” therefor alteration bad, which i find extra puzzling from some of the HC posts made. (specially if you dont’ even play SC first to test bosses or are unwilling to die entirely)

Hardcore players have the burden to level and lose chars/equipment. Do we even want them to have additional grind just to pretest in SC? ><. Leave the dangers; provide more HC tools. That would not necessary make all chars ascendant passable and HC foolproof.

i said it wasn’t from “challenge” /endgame ceiling being raised, but certain outlier enemies and certain attack’s scaling… - which doesn’t mean the ceiling as a whole, but fractions/outlier elements are increased

Bosses, nemesis and outliers are a large part of the challenge itself - they are the kill or be killed coin. Without them, we are left with 2m HP beavers and damage sponges. Fine-tuning actions have already been taken, and a few more are to come. I believe we are on the same page.

Memes are supposed to be more niche, but if the floor is set to X, this includes lesser “optimal” ones and memes, because it’s the content entry level. That is why it’s important to have a floor that’s lower than the ceiling, and not have them be one and the same, (like happened previously, and then still got moved and powercrept beyond that ).

Let’s settle this and make this our diverging point. Grimdawn has thrived on build variety. There were always the specific, optimized sets and dual-class target bonus items that are kinda self-explanatory for most sufficiently experient players (with the final few points to be extracted by Mad_Lee and CO). And then, there are the single-class-focusing sets, or the less straightforward, unconventional ones with conversions and weird mechanics needed to be unlocked. After 1.3.1, and if no new tools are added (i.e., imo that would be slightly more powerful ascension skill bonuses), I feel the potential of the latter group is kinda low, with not enough performance to be extracted.

Your point, if I finally get it right, is that FoA endendgame and challenge should be kept only for the few chosen ones (mainly the first group), or else the game is “trivialized”. My point is that leave options (ascendancy bonuses with more offensive power) to fully bake and optimize a less conventional build. Make those build cases “pay” the price in the form of grinding. Balance in a way that endgame (inc CR200 ><) is not gatekept behind certain builds and, at the same time, nothing is stream-rolled.

forgottendogs · September 15, 2026, 5:59pm

Good luck telling people they shouldn’t even be able to clear full alter ascendant. As long as it scales reward there are going to be complaints if they can’t do it.

Imo the current balance where you can clear full alter with homeblew builds before getting asc affix is great (I’m not saying they should be able to DESTROY it or do it completely safe in HC, that’s try-hard builds’ job).
If I’m told “oh no no no you can only get like 10 ashes 5 echoes per SoT run unless you have full set fully ascended gear on fotm class and skill” I’ll quit. As long as you make good decision on your character and have near BIS gear (should now be easy enough with relloing) you should be able to clear it with non-best builds.

Ascendant affix shouldn’t be requirement for full alter at all. They take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much fragments and iron bits to roll and it should remain as “ice on the cake” type chase.

Imo the problem with game difficulty rn is there is no bragging right content (where is proper ascendant super bosses???). We should be able to juice alter beyond 5/6 but reward shouldn’t scale just like super deep SR.

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 15, 2026, 6:16pm

yes, and it would be wonderful, amazing, if that was ever how balance was gauged or decided. But it’s not, that’s why the repeat comment/bringing it back matters.
And the reason for that is exactly that Ascendant has its own inherent ceiling, that i would like to keep too; but balancing based of other places, where if the floor changes, then “ruins” Ascendant - this is inevitable if it happens (which it already is)
So if you want to keep Ascendant having a sense of a ceiling you should care about Cruci/SR being used for balance metrics, because it will directly spill over, as it always has in terms of powercreep.

that’s up to them, if they can’t stand dying to new content they haven’t tried before, it’s their choice…
*again borks should be fixed, but that’s not all there is for sure judging by posts.

no…
it’s very very simple, which is also why i keep returning to Cruci as example because it’s such a simple black and white one.
Where the floor is, is where “everything” gets enabled. This was the case before too. Memes get buff to enter the floor, not just peak minmaxed, i think that’s a key misunderstanding, there was never a requiremetn for only XY set or combo, it’s the floor so it’s what default expected every decent end build can enter.
This is fine if the floor isn’t the ceiling too. But Cruci, and by extension Ascendant has an inherent ceiling, so if it also become the floor, like 170 was before, “the metric by which all is gauged”, then the ceiling becomes the floor, and optional challenge vanishes for everything (because powercreep galore).
I want the same as before, “all”(most half decent/semi optimized common sense) builds can enter and participate in the floor, but not necessarily perform equally. But if the floor is sky high, it means aaaalooootta build buffs to get the bottom half up on entry level… and then that challenge is gone because clear is guaranteed, the only difference is top top vs “bottom” acceptable performance; but still going to clear.
What happened last time we did that, was not only did memes become SR 31 capable, some budget builds could too, while “all” budget builds could participate in ex sr 65(26?). “jokes” could clear 31 comfortably even if not in top meta speed ofc, but that doesn’t really matter right, then it’s just a sematics state of potaytoes and potartoes chips with heinz ketchup or ranch dreseeing.
This spilled over to the floor not even being 31, but getting sneak increased, and sneak increased up to 36, while still buff feedbacked
^this will then “when it happens now/next round” spill over to Ascendant just like it did to MC before (you can’t buff a build only for 1 mode ) which results in base Ascendant becoming more trivial and trivial, until it’s no longer hald decent/semi common sense build doing juiced ascendant, but the budget kits too.
^and “if”/when that happens, Ascendant is back to being the old regular Ult, just like it was before, because the enemies have been nerfed to smitherines while builds have been buffed to trivialize even the hardest of it.
“and that’s what i don’t want to happen”, by then default expecting ex new cruci 200 to be the default norm aka floor…
Flip it around and use an SR value if that makes it easier to swallow. But where balancing feedback is based off matters, because it spills over to every other aspect of the game, and not all areas of the game is limitless (MC/Cruci), so when that limit is hit, the challenge is gone. - i’m trying to preempt that crying “dont’ expect the new ceiling to be the new floor”. And 200 is just one of those new ceilings to use as stick…

Memes can be uplifted, they should, and it’s fine, they always were, but it doesn’t have to be on a ceiling = floor ratio, for all builds, including non memes…

then you have not been here the last 5 years and seen the “meta” evolution and game impact if you think that
like… reaching a point where killing a Celestial in 1min was deemed too slow/“build need buffs”, and 5min SR was #deadbuild when 8+ had been the norm.

“point in case” we’re so far moved from the old days of non-steamroll events happening, specially with FoA bonuses too

Xervous · September 15, 2026, 7:12pm

So long as you’re picking a decently supported mastery combination and skill (ie making good decisions on your character) and have a good understand of the game mechanics (there’s a bunch of obtuse stuff, just ask people what the main damage threat is in ascendant) you have a path to clearing full altar, but not necessarily a guarantee of fast clears.

The proper assumption for a build going into full altar ascendant should include a grab bag of ascendant affixes because getting something is relatively easy. If you’re allowing affix rerolling, throwing just a few souls into turning a +useless WPS into +DA is a fair expectation. 10m iron bits an hour is easy to do with phillom nowadays.

Pick bad items, pick bad devotions, ignore the actual hazards of full altar? Then you don’t get to play. It’s mostly a numbers puzzle. If there’s a specific thing that’s truly underperforming it may deserve a buff, but let’s not talk about simplifying the puzzle so someone’s half baked solution works.

I’m not joking when I say there’d be a massive decrease in complaints if GD had a built in death recap because everyone would then understand phys damage is the main ascendant killer and could build accordingly without looking up enemy values.

forgottendogs · September 15, 2026, 7:29pm

This is exactly my point.

That’s fair, and in my personal (limited, I know) experience the current game difficulty more or less matches that.

Imo the current balance problem is skills/items/masteries rather than monsters or asc/alter.

Xervous · September 15, 2026, 7:40pm

Then I hope it makes sense when I point out the true source of the complaints are
A. clear speed
B. that errant potato who wants to facetank everything blindly
C. people who want the highest difficulty handed out like a participation trophy without the puzzle being solved

Discrepancies on A are going to be inevitable, especially now with the mobility skill disparity and the lopsided distribution of +% max speed

B is just a misplaced expectation

Devs listening to C kills games, just look at helldivers

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 15, 2026, 7:46pm

D, i’m a grump that always needs something to be grumpy about

forgottendogs · September 15, 2026, 8:00pm

Yeah, I just want it to be DOABLE with non-best builds as long as I do good enough job with them. If I get poorer performance with them that’s perfect! It’s what makes me want to build and play better!

Neph1 · September 16, 2026, 10:31am

So if you want to keep Ascendant having a sense of a ceiling, you should care about Cruci/SR being used for balance metrics, because it will directly spill over, as it always has in terms of power creep.

Exploring the ceiling of Ascendant and Altar, as well as related balance issues in Ascendant and Altar, as well as the potential of a build when juicing the Altar, a logical person would say that is assessed by (drum roll)… playing Ascendant and Altar. The fact that balance is “spilled” in CR, which indeed creates a condensed environment to test the final few points of performance, should not invalidate an opinion about Ascendant, Altar, and scaling that is based purely on this environment and not including CR.

I think “normal” testing can have a voice in the public discussion, not only speedrunning. From an elitist POV, you may argue that this voice is useless if not including CR, but it’s your choice (that’s why i questioned your whole engagement to this extent). For Crate dunno; they sure listen, but I doubt they are in an open line with us and EVERY complaint (and they shouldn’t).

Unfortunately, it seems that this discussion was dragged and misunderstood as whining about “why my/the builds suck in Ascendant”, which was not my intention.

I will try to remake my point (and even use CR200 since it seems it is the only common ground )
My original point is that old builds (based mostly on untouched/slightly touched items or class skills) got limited tools. Let’s divide skills and items into three groups:

Zerker and new mechanics ( OS, 100% of WPS with high DPS potential, CRD reduction chance)
Old items that got the new mechanics.
Old items that did not get the new mechanics.

I scrolled through the usual suspects YouTube (Lee, banana,mostly to go with “your waters” ) and CR200 ( ), and literally saw cases only the first two groups. Most (all?) new GDtools builds also belong in this category (minus pets or some SSF- with respect to them). This is, of course, not random since the DPS potential skyrockets in the first two cases. This then leads to better survivability - the more damage you get, the easier you survive) and leaves more room for resources and patching up holes - target items that provide stats and survivability; no need to maximize DPS. Thus, my point about the 3rd group not having enough resources. All known until here.

What next, after the honeymoon, “lets try new staff” period:

Zerker and new mechanics will be tuned (WD reduction, OS nonlinear bonus, WPS cap, CRD internal timer, dunno). We do not know by how much. Endgame becomes less trivial (good as you say). Maybe they are burned so much to the ground that current juiced is unattainable; that’s why Zantai hinted at reduced damage.
Where we land. No trivialization. Fewer builds to -easily- beat the game, more challenge. Again, all good.
Now my point: What happens to the old staff (the ones I talked about and dismissed because I did not provide CR numbers)? How good are they now? Do they get the new mechanics too (doubtful) ? Are the Pyrans, the Bloodragers, the new Epics? Should they stay where they are and not challenge the altar? Should they be able to participate for “top honors”?

My idea was to increase the ascension pool to provide better bonuses for “forgotten” skills and items. This will give the potential for more builds = more fun. Not necessarily “trivializing” potential, just enough to go ahead and try stuff. This is the essence of GD. Of course this is easier said than done (and balanced).

Right now, the gap between old and new is big. I don’t know where we will land post 1.3.1. I would like more freedom, more sense of occasion when farming for a specific roll to truly change the build logic.

In the end, it’s in the hands of Crate to set the limits of new ascendant for passable builds (meme or not, homebaked or not). Maybe this will be gatekept for new stuff. Maybe we will see a soldier with 2s ravager . We will see.

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 16, 2026, 11:02am

i’ve no idea how you can even connect those two
it’s not an elitist pov, it’s a literal fact that cruci and sr is the feedback centres for balancing and has always been… “that’s why it matters”, regardless if we dont’ like it or not, or if we dont’ want those consequences… it doesn’t matter if you think it’s elitist (what?), it doesn’t matter if you don’t care about non ascendant balancing focus; when it’s what’s being used and applied…

jezz…

sry, this is naive - eg earlier comment about you must have missed the last 5 years of GD if you think that’s ever on the table from player’s mindset

i’ve no idea if meta gang tested old stuff unaltered, or where they feel it lands, looks like most vids are focused on new builds (unsurprising since new), - but to me it also doesn’t matter (because i’m fine if they aren’t equally competitive to busted ofc, and the ones i tried are fine)

aaand there’s the problem, that you keep missing or ignoring? i do not understand how it can be this hard…
please, try to follow, i’ll try to make it simple
the issue is not Altar… and never was
“everything can already participate in Altar”
The issue is non Ascendant mode balancing metrics, being used/expected, that spills over to Ascendant; trivializing Ascendant+Altar
“expecting everything to clear SR 40 in 4mins and naked ex Cruci 200 in 3mins/old+new+all build parity = meaningless Ascendant”
^this is what happens if that base expectation does not change, or if the floor gets moved up…
Does that make sense now?
I don’t want Ascendant to be trivialized, by using other ceilings as the floor to entry… “and that will happen inevitably” if said floor is raised high from player desire or default expectation… - and imo that’s a big problem because it voids the addition of the new content entirely if so…
And if people are doing that now/immediately on release, the crazy powercreep+content trivialization will happen faster than it did last time. - only this time we’re not getting a Ascendant toggle for our Ascendant mode to help add extra increases again…

that wasn’t the issue or disagreement or conflict.
Only notion there is differing perspective on benefits etc. I don’t think Ascension Affixes is the only fix potential for any/XY struggling build, nor do i necessarily think it’s good solution(affix pool system has its own issues as is for one). So that was a non-starter debate, it was always about powercreep, both from player expectation/default mindset and the way GD is balanced about XY.
Power tools type+availability is the least of the concern there, and i think FoA has plenty options for it, so was never the concern. Metric and expectation application was.

i can only hope not

because content got entirely easily trivialized “last time”, is/was part of why not only i thought endgame was boring, but others requested stuff to improve it, ex adding a veteran toggle to ult(which is now Ascendant).
You got to level 100, slapped on basic bitch kit, and you facerolled everything. Sole step up from there was trying to increment your performance clear speed, killing ravager 5-10-30 secs faster, or going from 5.30 sr to sub 5 etc…
^you slapped on kit and felt done before even playing it, “knowing” it will clear stuff beforehand

I don’t want that same thing to happen to FoA, i especially do not want that same thing to happen “immediately”/3-6months <1 year from release… Where you get level 100, slap on budget kit from the faction shop, and breeze through the new endgame content, just like before. Where endgame is “simple”/extra simplified from powercreep, that you’re borderline guaranteed to succeed and lose point in actually playing it, because it’s effectively as if it wasn’t even added in the first place/"install non FoA, clear MC Ult, but add more loot reward+new faces"15$ edition.
If there is no challenge potential, because participation and success in peak end is assured, what is there to engage in/bother with? - if endgame was already requested to be made less dull before, because the only thing left was shaving extra seconds off kill performance, why are we instantly trying to water down the new increased challenge ceiling, by turning it into the floor instead…
And that peak “end challenge” prospect cannot exist, if all builds get permitted to equally succeed everywhere. Struggle or even char/build failings have to be part of the curve…

Toxophilix · September 16, 2026, 12:45pm

I wonder if it would help if there were some challenge you had to beat to access Ascendant, rather than it just unlocking at level 100. For example, that you have to beat Ultimate Beronath (which could be tuned to give the right level of challenge). Then you could make it so you had to beat Ascendant Bero to unlock the Ascendant version of the altar.

I guess this is impossible and that a lot of people would hate it, but it would make it clear that you are not expected to just walk into these levels of difficulty with a scrabbled together 100 char. At the moment the game does kind of invite you to switch to Ascendant when you ding 100 so it’s not surprising that people do that and then bitch when it doesn’t go well. Similarly with the Ascendant altar.

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 16, 2026, 1:13pm

i think the problem with that is just that it would be inherently unproductive.
A bit similar like right now where Ascendant itself is already artificially gated off to lvl 100, despite probably being more than possible to be able to cope with it after finishing playthrough 1 at char level 70-75/however much we get.
So you’re just adding a step to, get lvl 100, reach bero, bonk bero, now enable “uber altar”, when said char that could do that, is basically just going through an arbitrary hurdle to get the activation point. Either chars can’t handle it (which wont be accepted by community ) or it can handle it and is “wasting” time on a pre-requisite unlock.
*besides allowing ascendant itself to not be gated off to 100 (imo), there’s already others also wanting access to Ascension Altar earlier than Kurnhold, just to be able to increase stuff the first 4 acts, because XY toon can already handle that. It would just extend the tedium for YZ char to additionally have to go further to get a 2nd unlock then. (specially alt chars if you’re not SSF outfitting them/using stored sets etc ofc)

Toxophilix · September 16, 2026, 1:43pm

True. Actually, the whole thing is not really a problem for alts that have level 94 gear lined up for them. They probably are able to step straight into the highest difficulty the build is capable of.

One thing: I’m not wedded to the idea of using Bero for this. It could be an easily accessible challenge that didn’t require grinding to the end of Ultimate.

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 16, 2026, 1:48pm

aye, but, whatever it is, it will just be an arbitrary tedium checkpoint addition, hence “what’s the point” gating it off. Chars either can or can’t pass it, to any char that can it wont really matter where you put it, will just be seen as redundant extra task to checkmark cross off.
*besides potential cheese potential ofc.
And, i can’t imagine there being any potential gatelock having it at Krieg ofc Anything later is further away to add that tedium…

Neph1 · September 16, 2026, 1:53pm

i’ve no idea how you can even connect those two
it’s not an elitist pov, it’s a literal fact that cruci and sr is the feedback centres for balancing and has always been… “that’s why it matters”, regardless if we dont’ like it or not, or if we dont’ want those consequences… it doesn’t matter if you think it’s elitist (what?), it doesn’t matter if you don’t care about non ascendant balancing focus; when it’s what’s being used and applied…

Firstly: It’s a false premise to consider that all players, including newer players, forum non-regulars, and non-Discord users, know exactly how feedback for balance is filtered and used. Declaring it as “literal fact” and “has always been” is kinda ironic, considering your reaction to e****sm :D. Personally, i have only seen comments on SR30 being an entry for dev balance cases, and that from a user.

And because I sincerely didn’t know the details of the past, I burned my precious Fable 5.1 to check it.

I won’t comment on this CR thing again (and SR, which you slipped in the last answer for extra internet points); it got distorted beyond meaning. My notion was not to give an outlier case for a dev (Are sucking outliers considered?) In the end, you know I am a simple man, i just want to play Ascendant, y’know?

sry, this is naive - eg earlier comment about you must have missed the last 5 years of GD (note if you think that’s ever on the table from player’s mindset

Sorry I play for 1.5 years not 5 . Does this make me naive? Does it have to do with something with players wanting the game beaten easily?

I don’t want that same thing to happen to FoA, i especially do not want that same thing to happen “immediately”/3-6months

That is partially attributed to the GDstashers. Some people then will follow the easy way

aaand there’s the problem, that you keep missing or ignoring? i do not understand how it can be this hard…
please, try to follow, i’ll try to make it simple
the issue is not Altar… and never was
“everything can already participate in Altar”
The issue is non Ascendant mode balancing metrics, being used/expected, that spills over to Ascendant; trivializing Ascendant+Altar
“expecting everything to clear SR 40 in 4mins and naked ex Cruci 200 in 3mins/old+new+all build parity = meaningless Ascendant”
^this is what happens if that base expectation does not change, or if the floor gets moved up…

I also did make it simple, and you failed to get it. I don’t know how this can be hard.

Are you sure you’re replying to me, not another post, and conflating my point with some forum expectation about Ascendant accessibility? Because I never mentioned SR40 and CR200 (I actually tried to leave CR outside of it :D) to Ascendant transition being guaranteed. I never said, “I did SR31, therefore should do altar”.

My point is old vs new. Old feels outdated and is left behind DPS-wise. The suggestion of some old staff being given tools does not mean that Ascendant will be autochecked and flooded with those builds. Just leave a few more paths for old builds and reduce the paths for new builds.If current status is a design target, so be it.

And since this discussion was devoured by your view and wishlist for Ascendant and late-game difficulty being for the few (which I agree to an extent), I will stop here. Let’s keep in mind that my view and your view are certainly not Crate’s view.

i’ve no idea if meta gang tested old stuff unaltered, or where they feel it lands, looks like most vids are focused on new builds (unsurprising since new), - but to me it also doesn’t matter (because i’m fine if they aren’t equally competitive to busted ofc, and the ones i tried are fine)

At last some good news! Can you share an old build to try and 5 x altar? XD

Toxophilix · September 16, 2026, 1:54pm

Advantage of making Ultimate Krieg the hardest boss in the game: no more complaints about any Act 2-8 boss.

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 16, 2026, 2:28pm

… omg… i genuinely don’t know what you’re trying to pull now
Did i claim it was universal knowledge nor i expected everyone to be aware of it; i’m telling you it it is, repeatedly, yet it’s being ignored.
It is ok to not be aware, but when then repeatedly told about it, it doen’t work as excuse nor trying to brush it off…
And it doesn’t change it being a fact. Unawareness of X doesn’t mean X not being a thing… even weirder connection to try pull.
ngl it feels almost insulting at this point

*me too:, that’s why i dont’ want the floor to be increased to turn Ascendant into former regular ultimate by meta expectations and default metric feedback

no, it’s not, again, huge misconception. GDstash doesnt’ set the balancing metrics, it just highlights builds/combos able to do XYZ quicker than others.
What sets the balancing metrics is the devs and what metrics are used as threshold and tolerated; if those thresholds are set high, that’s how we get powercreep to reduce content/game impact. - that’s why i have concerns about raising the floor and default meta expectations.
All that’s required is to set a line in the sand, and not relent on this time as has been before nor allow backdoring in requests past the line
Again numbers example are easy for black-white contrast, if old SR31 was the target, all feedback/requests relating to anything past that should been outright rejected. “hard line”. If new Cruci ceiling is 200, its hard line could be 190, with a XY caveat for 200 “not this fast/naked ex” etc. For SR i genuinely don’t know what that would be, even if i wish 31 would still be it, it’s very unlikely that would be.
Likewise, as Seraphim mentioned, before the stance was also Celestials not for everything/not considered for buff purposes, but still got used for comparison metrics. Easy Sahara line there could be “no bitching about 5x ascendant Bero, Mog 2.0 or Bobr”, while then still using it as nerf stick if someone has some exploit stuff
Again, very simple, it’s just about both having an appropriate floor so there is room to be a meaningful ceiling, while actually having a line in the sand to kinda maintain it.

no i’m not, because that’s not even what that comment was about…
“things carry over”; so SR/Cruci feedback will automatically impact Ascendant… “because you can’t buff a character for 1 mode only”, you buff a build, it’s buffed in ascendant, you buff it enough; those builds now trivialize Ascendant and has no bonus/new optional challenge there… By virtue of non ascendant balance feedback…
“right now” all builds can participate in Ascendant and Altar, how much varies. But everything getting buffed the snot out, because a metric floor being increased elsewhere will then impact Ascendant+Altar and make that default/automatically challenge changed too…
Again, it doesn’t matter if you don’t care about SR or Cruci, “it’s being used as feedback”, so it will directly impact Ascendant as outcome… It’s inevitable as build buffs and changes carries over… The only concern/question is how much, and one way to curb that is by not raising the metric floor from said feedback that’s being used…
“it doesn’t matter you’re not invoking SR or cruci 200, others are”; and it will impact you/me/Ascendant as result… that’s why it matters even if you dont’ use it as example or yardstick.

tool suggestion itself no, but application matters, and here the OG example was cruci 200 expectation… and that’s why it matters. Because then it does flood ove to Ascendant, and quickly, if that’s the default expecation that’s then maintained - even if it’s not your expectation, because others then still feedback based of that expectation.

again… not the thing raised… not sure how many times i have to correct that to make it understood.
And i’ve already said multiple times every builds can already participate in Ascendant, that’s no the problem. The concern is to not omega trivialize it by non ascendant feedback related buffs… “because then Ascendant wont matter/might not exists as even its current challenge state will be gone”.

even my regular non MI clairvoyant works, + belgo, warborn cadence, cyclone, avenger, Uro/“half” of the former top20 list i loaded after FoA release to quick check stuff on before even trying new builds, (without ascension affix alteration). Did Lee’s PRM without swapping to new gloves/before realizing the gloves was there. (which would be considered an appropriate old-new adjustment).
Also cleared sr31 fine (pre nerf). *didn’t bother with cruci 200 because i don’t care about running cruci at all. Stopped checking Ravager after learning some bosses dont’ scale on Ascendant (does scale on Altar)

Neph1 · September 16, 2026, 4:25pm

… omg… i genuinely don’t know what you’re trying to pull now
Did i claim it was universal knowledge nor i expected everyone to be aware of it; i’m telling you it it is, repeatedly, yet it’s being ignored.
It is ok to not be aware, but when then repeatedly told about it, it doesn’t work as an excuse nor trying to brush it off…
And it doesn’t change it being a fact. Unawareness of X doesn’t mean X not being a thing… even weirder connection to try pull.
ngl it feels almost insulting at this point

I am not pulling anything here, and certainly not brushing off, not backtracking. And not trying to insult sry about that.

a) I already mentioned that I had read about SR31 considerations. You were previously fixated on CR balance not SR.

b) Repeatedly told me about what, CR? I already acknowledged CR - direct quote from me " The fact that balance is “spilled” in CR, which indeed creates a condensed environment to test the final few points of performance.". Never said don’t use CR for balance discussions. Never said CR hasn’t been used (even without knowing details) for balance. Neither for SR, for that matter. Never said it has not been useful. I mentioned - quote - “My notion was not to give an outlier case for a dev” using CR.

c) My original point of discussion is the lack of performance for old staff. That’s why I made the comment about not using CR and stopwatch. Like, you CAN highlight a busted build to pinpoint a bust with CR; how can I highlight my point about old builds? Post how fast i die in CR200? Thus, "I play Ascendant mode to provide Ascendant feedback.

d) Unawareness of what? CR balance feedback? I literally just printed an ss which shows some discussions about CR impact (I also read previous a lot of old balance discussions); I certainly wasn’t unaware when making the comment. Including the irony.

Do you have any indications or dev discussions about how current balancing feedback and decisions are made, and how much SR/CR performance impacts FoA balancing? How much more or less that CR/SR is new mogdrogen and new nemesis to ascendant balance than SR/CR?

Because previously, the campaign was “easy” and CR/SR were the only indicators of end-game performance. CR/SR were essentially the only late-game. Now that has changed.

Do you have any evidence to back " SR/Cruci feedback will automatically impact Ascendant", or its just a feeling? Funny thing is my feedback was not SR/CR nor based on SR/CR expectation. But w/e

Ty for the builds

Gnomish_Inquisition · September 16, 2026, 4:56pm

as was mentioned, it was “fixated” because that was the OG reply… SR was also mentioned in the same vein afterwards several times and they are crisscross relevant in the same point: feedback, metrics, spillover trivialization powercreep from expectation/floor changes.

yes… and as i said, “that’s the very point”, because it is… so you can’t disconnect them like that, “it’s used as metric”… -we can dislike or disagree with it, but it matters. “repeated 5x now”…
Old stuff then doesn’t necessarily need a buff, because other busted stuff does. It only needs a buff if the base expectation is either parity or default success in non ascendant metrics… “and is that necessary”; does old unmodified stuff(that players didn’t even adjust) need to equally succeed in ceiling, or is it okay if floor is lower than the ceiling.
^If it’s the latter, it doesn’t need the same buff, and players can fix large part of the issue with an expectation adjustment…

then why are you surprised or confused about it being used as metric or it being mentioned as impactful for balancing/mattering/being a metric, - heck why even make this prior comment then

^this is nonsense then, you were either on board or not. - you can’t invoke “other”/strawman unrelated new players or different non forum regulars when the convo is you and i. So either you’re aware or not, in which case the previous comment was pointless or disingenuous “you knew cruci was being used/pretended it was wrong to reference it having been used”…

“check patch notes”

it has not, that might be part of the issue. There is not a separation, which is also why both were used previously. And as i said, you can’t balance for 1 mode without it spilling over. So it wont even matter if Ascendant gets used; it wont be exclusively used (and you can already tell by patch notes both Cruci and SR feedback has been kept in mind).

you realize how numbers work and build buffs does? - the whole reason MC was trivialized before was directly because of buffs carrying over…
This is unavoidable because you cannot just buff for one mode.
So unless your argument is there will be 0 buffs based on cruci/SR, you simply cannot separate them (and it’s already happening/being feedbacked)

yes, and that’s part of the point… Your feedback will spill over to SR/Cruci. but will (likely) be less relevant, becuase more metric/endgame balancing feedback is made with the other modes as testing grounds… “which is why i dont’ want the floor raised”, because then we trivialize Ascendant instantly by big floor changes instead of smaller reasonable tweaks like yours…
But unless your tweaks results in big SR/Cruci improvements, they will be drowned out by the requests to boost builds to facetank SR 36 etc.
I wish your type of smaller feedback would be the ones “only” listened to, but i’m almost willing to guarantee it will not be enough to satisfy the “meta”… (because meta performance is measured elsewhere/“by the stopwatch”)

By your same consideration; if Uro as is can comfortably clear juiced Ascendant, does it need buffs? even if it got lesser new tools 3/6 FoA tools to work with instead of “all” at once" - yet it’s being requested so… because the metric lies elsewhere…

Udgard1 · September 17, 2026, 7:08am

IMHO the ideal situation would be;

if the old build has avenue of update that still keeps similar playstyle, then it should ideally reach parity once it’s updated
if the old build has no avenue of update that doesn’t keep the same playstyle, then it should reach parity as is, most likely by buffing the old items that enabled those playstyle in the first place

GD is a game that is still getting new players (especially with FoA bringing it back to the spotlight), and even for old players many would have only played a handful of builds. It will take out a lot of the hype in seeing a build-enabling item if you know most of them have huge performance gaps with another build you’re already playing. It’s inevitable that perfect parity can’t be reached, and I don’t think it should either (for example, I don’t think naturally less synergistic combos should not be performing as well as naturally synergistic ones, unless they receive specific item support to help them. But then if a naturally synergistic combo receives the same level of support, it should probably still keep some edge). But at the same time we should strive to keep old existing builds up to date if the general power level is going to increase (like it has now), either by buffing their core items or providing stronger alternatives for their 'filler/stat stick" supporting slots.