game has major design flaws

[Cepheiden]

Grim Dawn is a fun game - but only for a single playthrough, because afterwards the flaws in the design become apparent.

1. It is unreasonably difficult to get the (right) items one wants in this game, or any items at all in general.

15 possible class combinations, each of them with multiple playstyles, 12 or so damage types… how many possible combinations does that make?
The game would need like 600 different lvl 75 legendaries to accommodate for all feasible combinations.
Yet it’s already impossible to get the items you want with not even a third of the necessary lvl 75 legendaries in the game.
Also it seems that the RNG in this game has some flaws too, it often generates the same results / uses the same seed, i.e. making players find certain items again and again.

So ultimately, the combination class system, too many damage types, RNG formula and the item design are all major design flaws.

2. The ‘crafting’ system.

Instead of finding the item, you have to find the blueprint from the same sources you find all your items anyway. It wouldn’t make much of a difference to have the item drop directly, in fact it would make things more convenient since you could use it right away.

It’s basically just a fallacy.

3. dual wield one handed vs two handed weapons

It just doesn’t work with the way the game calculates damage bonuses. Not only do two handed weapons have less base damage than they would need to be competitive, but they also only get the bonus damage applied once and at slower attack speed. The result is dual wield having virtually twice as much damage as two handers. Same goes for ranged.

To fix that, the game would have to scale every flat damage bonus (so items, skills, devotions, buffs etc.) with the type of weapon and attack speed.
Yet the devs completely ignore this issue… well not completely since they adjusted the weapon enchants to have better stats for two handers. So it’s kind of weird they think about two handers in that regard, yet completely ignore the main problem with them.

I initially worked on a mod to fix the poor item design, which would fix a lot of the issues. But that just takes way too much time for doing something the devs should have done a long time ago.
Ultimately, all these things make playing the game more than once and beyond the basic difficulty just a chore.

[Nssheepster]

1. That’s part of the value. That’s part of the genre. If you don’t like that, then you won’t like any other ARPG either. Sorry.

2. I agree, but it’s not a massive issue, really. Just a nuisance.

3. The only real issue with Dual is that for no apparent reason, we have to unlock it. We don’t have to unlock any other type of weapon/usage, so… It doesn’t make much sense. Balance wise, it works just fine as long as you aren’t using Nightblade. Nightblade is basically ONLY there for Dual, however, so it makes sense, at least.

[dekaron]

Pre crucible it was extremely hard to complete sets now its better, higher number of drops = better chance at rng

You need a decent char which can farm elite nemesis or ultimate for the stuff initially

[Safarel]

1. Overall, it is really the conventions of the genre, but I can agree that some builds require more love from the developers in terms of legendary items. This becomes even more sense in view of the fact that the Inquisitor announced, which means we need an even stronger variety of things.

2. I see nothing wrong in forging items according to the recipe, a lot more problems in our system of forging random things, this system at best, needs to be completely redone or (more real version) strongly changed.

[Malfet]

1. You have things you can be sure of in your class combo, it’s your skills and devotions. If they work fine, you can get non-specific gear and finish the game on ultimate (at least so do I believe, but ofc I didn’t tried all possible combos). I prefer more class/skill variety to less classes/less items but useful for all combos, tbh.

2. You forget that all your recipes, once learned, are shared between all your characters in same gametype (soft/hardcore). In your next playthroughs it’s basically a guaranteed rare item, often with pretty modest requirements, and available early.

3. Had little experience playing actual nightblade combo, but so far yeah, I’m under impression that 2w > 2h. 2h has Kraken, as a sort of crutch, but in the end still weaker, imho. Biger returns from %weapon damage skills, but those percentages have a tendency to get nerfed in last patches. Only have played 1 two-handed and 1 dualwield build, though, maybe wrong.

[Tyr]

1. That’s because you seem to think Grim Dawn is some sort of Diablo clone. It’s not, although it is heavily inspired by the old Diablo-esque games.
   Items in the game were meant complement builds, with some rare/legendary items being unique enough to perhaps even define them. That means items of ALL types (yellows, greens, blues, purples) are ultimate-viable. This is not Diablo were any non-legendary item basically amounts to being a placeholder, crafting fodder or wasted data space.

It’s a want vs need thing. You don’t need much to beat challenges, especially if you have a working knowledge of enemy tactics/damage types, but you’ll have to work a bit harder if you want something.

2. Same as 1. The unique item recipes are basically just a bonus, improving your odds of finding the items you want.

3. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a build that could just stand still and hit things, or at least one that doesn’t need a whole lot of specific end-game items.

[MortalKombat]

Grim Dawn is a fun game - but only for a single playthrough, because afterwards the flaws in the design become apparent.

1. It is unreasonably difficult to get the (right) items one wants in this game, or any items at all in general.

15 possible class combinations, each of them with multiple playstyles, 12 or so damage types… how many possible combinations does that make?
The game would need like 600 different lvl 75 legendaries to accommodate for all feasible combinations.
Yet it’s already impossible to get the items you want with not even a third of the necessary lvl 75 legendaries in the game.
Also it seems that the RNG in this game has some flaws too, it often generates the same results / uses the same seed, i.e. making players find certain items again and again.

So ultimately, the combination class system, too many damage types, RNG formula and the item design are all major design flaws.

2. The ‘crafting’ system.

Instead of finding the item, you have to find the blueprint from the same sources you find all your items anyway. It wouldn’t make much of a difference to have the item drop directly, in fact it would make things more convenient since you could use it right away.

It’s basically just a fallacy.

3. dual wield one handed vs two handed weapons

It just doesn’t work with the way the game calculates damage bonuses. Not only do two handed weapons have less base damage than they would need to be competitive, but they also only get the bonus damage applied once and at slower attack speed. The result is dual wield having virtually twice as much damage as two handers. Same goes for ranged.

To fix that, the game would have to scale every flat damage bonus (so items, skills, devotions, buffs etc.) with the type of weapon and attack speed.
Yet the devs completely ignore this issue… well not completely since they adjusted the weapon enchants to have better stats for two handers. So it’s kind of weird they think about two handers in that regard, yet completely ignore the main problem with them.

I initially worked on a mod to fix the poor item design, which would fix a lot of the issues. But that just takes way too much time for doing something the devs should have done a long time ago.
Ultimately, all these things make playing the game more than once and beyond the basic difficulty just a chore.

1. Well, some time ago, you could finish Ultimate without swimming in top-tier items… But i feel gameplay got much harder since, and strongest builds were nerfed severely…
2. Well, except you can maximize rolls with crafting (you can craft an item over and over again, and then choose the one with best rolls). But yeah, all crafing system in the game is literally fallacy…
3. You’re wrong there. First, attack speeds for 2-handers are just 10-15% slower, not a big deal. But base damage for 2-handers is 2+ times higher. Both ranged and melee 2-h builds arent worse than dualwielders. Shield builds are a bit ahead because Deadly Momentum adds quite big amount of damage.

[Jaknet]

So very basically…the game doesn’t do what you want it to do, how you want it done, therefore it’s the game that’s flawed… :rolleyes:

Grim Dawn isn’t a clone of game xyz and will not change to match how some other game does anything.

it’s not the game that’s flawed.

[Slayerviper]

So very basically…the game doesn’t do what you want it to do, how you want it done, therefore it’s the game that’s flawed… :rolleyes:

Grim Dawn isn’t a clone of game xyz and will not change to match how some other game does anything.

it’s not the game that’s flawed.

More and more of these posts lately. The game must be getting more popular so yay, the downside is you get a larger player base (look how intelligent the blizzard forums are).

[eralduspr]

Grim Dawn is a fun game - but only for a single playthrough, because afterwards the flaws in the design become apparent.

1. It is unreasonably difficult to get the (right) items one wants in this game, or any items at all in general.

15 possible class combinations, each of them with multiple playstyles, 12 or so damage types… how many possible combinations does that make?
The game would need like 600 different lvl 75 legendaries to accommodate for all feasible combinations.
Yet it’s already impossible to get the items you want with not even a third of the necessary lvl 75 legendaries in the game.
Also it seems that the RNG in this game has some flaws too, it often generates the same results / uses the same seed, i.e. making players find certain items again and again.

So ultimately, the combination class system, too many damage types, RNG formula and the item design are all major design flaws.

2. The ‘crafting’ system.

Instead of finding the item, you have to find the blueprint from the same sources you find all your items anyway. It wouldn’t make much of a difference to have the item drop directly, in fact it would make things more convenient since you could use it right away.

It’s basically just a fallacy.

3. dual wield one handed vs two handed weapons

It just doesn’t work with the way the game calculates damage bonuses. Not only do two handed weapons have less base damage than they would need to be competitive, but they also only get the bonus damage applied once and at slower attack speed. The result is dual wield having virtually twice as much damage as two handers. Same goes for ranged.

To fix that, the game would have to scale every flat damage bonus (so items, skills, devotions, buffs etc.) with the type of weapon and attack speed.
Yet the devs completely ignore this issue… well not completely since they adjusted the weapon enchants to have better stats for two handers. So it’s kind of weird they think about two handers in that regard, yet completely ignore the main problem with them.

I initially worked on a mod to fix the poor item design, which would fix a lot of the issues. But that just takes way too much time for doing something the devs should have done a long time ago.
Ultimately, all these things make playing the game more than once and beyond the basic difficulty just a chore.

1- You’re basically complaining about one of the core aspects that defines what an ARPG is… sorry but, either you accept it, or this genre is not for you. :undecided:

2- If you’re expecting a complex crafting system, you won’t find it here… The crafting system is basically a gambling system where you place your bet, e.g your crafing materials, and then that the RNG will favor you. At least you can always try to craft a Faceguard of Justice for example, once you find its blueprint and have the materials for it, rather than waiting for the game to drop it between all the other gear pieces…

3- Kraken constellation. That’s all.

[Ceno]

3- Kraken constellation. That’s all.

Kraken sucks if you actually crunch the math behind it. Well, kinda. It’s good for the crit damage and movespeed and the affinity it grants (although if you need affinity, just take Viper). The % damage is negligible (relative to what you’ll already have, ESPECIALLY on a 2H build) and 20% Attack Speed on 2H is nowhere close to 20% Attack Speed.

[DaShiv]

It is unreasonably difficult to get the (right) items one wants in this game, or any items at all in general.

15 possible class combinations, each of them with multiple playstyles, 12 or so damage types… how many possible combinations does that make?
The game would need like 600 different lvl 75 legendaries to accommodate for all feasible combinations.
Yet it’s already impossible to get the items you want with not even a third of the necessary lvl 75 legendaries in the game.

You’re assuming that items have to be specifically tailored to the exactly mastery/playstyle/damagetype combination to be useful or else they’re completely garbage. That’s not the way it work here: in this game, different builds make use of the same items in different ways.

First of all, items are not specific to any single mastery combo. The same Blademaster build can choose to use Markovian (Soldier set) or Deathmark (Nightblade set) for very different types of bonuses. This flexibility is a feature, not a bug.

Secondly, different builds can emphasize different aspects of the same items. For example, the Primal Instinct relic provides bonuses to Shaman skills so Shamans make best use of it, right? However, my Pyromancer takes advantage of the item in ways that no Shaman build can: it uses Demolitionist to amp the fire damage from the relic’s swarmlings pets, and Occultist to shred enemy fire resistance. Neither of these can be effectively accomplished by Shamans, so Primal Instinct is clearly not a Shaman-only item. Shamans benefit from the relic a certain way and my Pyromancer benefits from it differently, and this makes the game far more interesting. This is also why there are no hard class requirements for items.

Ultimately, ARPGs where you’re forced to “select class X which then requires legendary set Y for cookie-cutter build Z” are stiflingly boring, and Grim Dawn is not one of those. Yes, there are a few obvious cookie-cutter skill/item “required combos” like BWC/IK set, but by and large the rest of the skills and items provide a huge variety of possibilities. This freedom is actually one of the game’s major selling points, and not a design flaw at all.

Make multiple characters and explore different builds. Grim Dawn is not a “I just created a Nightblade so now the whole world should only contain Nightblade items” kind of a game.

[JoV]

Kraken sucks if you actually crunch the math behind it. Well, kinda. It’s good for the crit damage and movespeed and the affinity it grants (although if you need affinity, just take Viper). The % damage is negligible (relative to what you’ll already have, ESPECIALLY on a 2H build) and 20% Attack Speed on 2H is nowhere close to 20% Attack Speed.

Kraken sucks? What doesn’t suck than? :eek:

P.S. 120% to all dmg is not small thing imho.

[Jabarto]

Kraken sucks if you actually crunch the math behind it. Well, kinda. It’s good for the crit damage and movespeed and the affinity it grants (although if you need affinity, just take Viper). The % damage is negligible (relative to what you’ll already have, ESPECIALLY on a 2H build) and 20% Attack Speed on 2H is nowhere close to 20% Attack Speed.

And it’s still the best thing 2H has going for it.

Lightning 2H is goodfor lightning but for literally any other damage type you’ll get better results from dual wielding (and even lightning dual-wielders are pretty evenly matched).

[Chthon]

Kraken sucks? What doesn’t suck than? :eek:

P.S. 120% to all dmg is not small thing imho.

Agreed

@Ceno You’re underestimating the bonuses on kraken imo

[eralduspr]

Kraken sucks.

Let’s see:

+80% Physical Damage, + 120% All Damage, + 15% Critical Damage, +20% Attack Speed and +5% Movement Speed…

Sorry, but I’m gonna disagree the fuck out of this statement. Kraken is probably the most powerful “weapon class” constellation, and I dare any self-respecting 2H build to not go for it. :eek:

[Ceno]

and I dare any self-respecting 2H build to not go for it. :eek:

Ok.

Edit: Editing images is hard…

[krell_154]

Grim Dawn is a fun game - but only for a single playthrough, because afterwards the flaws in the design become apparent.

1. It is unreasonably difficult to get the (right) items one wants in this game, or any items at all in general.

15 possible class combinations, each of them with multiple playstyles, 12 or so damage types… how many possible combinations does that make?
The game would need like 600 different lvl 75 legendaries to accommodate for all feasible combinations.
Yet it’s already impossible to get the items you want with not even a third of the necessary lvl 75 legendaries in the game.
Also it seems that the RNG in this game has some flaws too, it often generates the same results / uses the same seed, i.e. making players find certain items again and again.

So ultimately, the combination class system, too many damage types, RNG formula and the item design are all major design flaws.

2. The ‘crafting’ system.

Instead of finding the item, you have to find the blueprint from the same sources you find all your items anyway. It wouldn’t make much of a difference to have the item drop directly, in fact it would make things more convenient since you could use it right away.

It’s basically just a fallacy.

3. dual wield one handed vs two handed weapons

It just doesn’t work with the way the game calculates damage bonuses. Not only do two handed weapons have less base damage than they would need to be competitive, but they also only get the bonus damage applied once and at slower attack speed. The result is dual wield having virtually twice as much damage as two handers. Same goes for ranged.

To fix that, the game would have to scale every flat damage bonus (so items, skills, devotions, buffs etc.) with the type of weapon and attack speed.
Yet the devs completely ignore this issue… well not completely since they adjusted the weapon enchants to have better stats for two handers. So it’s kind of weird they think about two handers in that regard, yet completely ignore the main problem with them.

I initially worked on a mod to fix the poor item design, which would fix a lot of the issues. But that just takes way too much time for doing something the devs should have done a long time ago.
Ultimately, all these things make playing the game more than once and beyond the basic difficulty just a chore.

You’re complaining against everything that makes Grim Dawn a complex and sophisticated game that it is.

Regarding point 1, as somebody already said, you certainly don’t need a 100 legendaries per class in order to equip multiple builds. Legendaries in this game come with a huge number of bonuses, and a number of them can be utilized by different builds. Furthermore, a lot of builds can finish the game without that perfect legendary tailor-made for them - double rares can be also great, as can some epics. The problem with items is the high rate of getting the same pieces, you are right there.

As far as 2 is concerned, I love the fact that you have to craft the items. It makes you combine components, and go out to farm for them specifically. It adds a dose of challenge to the game, makes it more methodical, and gives a nice sense of accomplishment when you craft the relic after farming components for it for several hours.

I’m not sure what to say about your third point. You should bear in mind that, unless you have weapon-pool skills adding to 100% proc chance, your dual-wielder will not always attack with both weapons simultaneously. Now, whether that balances it completely, I’m not sure. But as others said, Kraken constellation provides a nice boost to 2hander characters.

[JoV]

Ok.

Its not ok Blow for blow what constellation is better that kraken?

[thecrawlingchaos]

Stuff

1. There are TONS of items, and while its infeasible to create enough to fill every single combination, there are plenty and I’ve never found myself wanting for an item to fit my build. Sure, some itemization is lacking and some class combos are rather squishy, that’s the price of variety. You sound like the people complaining they can’t facetank fabius with X build because Y build can, wah.

2. While I have issues with the crafting system personally, I don’t think its so terrible. I would like to see better material drops and an upgrade to Dismantling however.

3. Either you haven’t done your research or you are talking out of your keister, the game punishes you pretty bad for dual weilding as a non-nightblade, so your damage is throttled by needing a special item or a skill, same and doubly so for dual wielding ranged. Sure with careful gearing the power and damage you lose by going duals is mitigated, but I’m currently running Two amazingly fun crossbow builds that put my other pistol builds to shame.

Krakken is an amazing constellation that can pair with Hydra for some frightening numbers. Not only that, but I have yet to play a dual weild build that clears content faster than my 2h forcewave, my 2h primal strike warder. 2h fire strike sorcerer, or even my Vanilla 2h battlemage.

You say you were attempting to ‘fix’ these problems that the devs should have but it was too much work? Do you see then how much more work it would be to develop something real and attributable and then balance it? If you have a problem with the exact math behind it, then show us some data and suggestions on how to fix that.