Trying the 003 version, it seems the updates didn’t go through (looking at Reaver’s Claw and the spellfire wand - neither updated)
The files says there were some updated on 8/4/16 but in game seems identical.
Truth be told, I had forgotten the -%Weapon Damage was on Shred, but I now recall the path that led to its addition. Hence the discrepancy about my comment. Sorry.
I don’t want to seem defeatist on the subject, but I’m starting to near the point where I’m willing to call our experimentation on Cadence as a loss. I honestly like the new Cadence, published by Crate in 1.0.0.5. I’ve been contemplating slapping it into Cornucopia, getting rid of Shred, and making the following changes to the skill line:
Cadence from 16/26 to 12/22 (rescale such that rank 16 damage = rank 12 damage and ultimate ranks are mirrored appropriately).
Deadly Momentum from 12/22 to 10/20 (same scaling concept as the above). Deadly Momentum moved from 40/50 mastery points to 32/50.
Fighting Form Bleeding Damage -> Internal Trauma Damage.
I’d be interested to know what people think of such an adaptation of the 1.0.0.5 Cadence line before I go through the work of integrating it as such. To me, the problem with Cadence has been twofold: too expensive for too minor results; antisynergy with procs. The proposed changes above would at least solve the former problem (a 14-skillpoint requirement reduction to max the entire line).
What about in 002?
I’m fine with this.
I’m fine with this.
Does that mean you think the current Cadence is too weak, or just that Shred isn’t working properly?
I don’t have the time right now, but I intend to make an in-depth post about Cadence tonight. I’ve played around 4 characters based on the skill to 80+ in both vanilla and the mod, so I’m pretty familiar with it.
What I’ll say for now is, I don’t consider the current version weak, in fact it’s quite good, significant improvements would make it too good.
But as mentioned before, the 4 charge level thing is just one too many which directly penalizes the slower builds.
I think the vanilla 2 charge level is one too few, which makes it bad with WPS. So as suggested, I think the middle ground with 3 charges is a well-fitting solution.
The problem with Cadence isn’t that it’s bad— it’s very competitive on a well-built character. The real issue is that there is a huge power disparity between various weapon groups.
The order of power is most likely: DW guns > 2H rifle = DW melee >> 2H melee (and 1h/shield somewhere at the bottom too, but those builds are uncommon).
That power difference is the same in the vanilla Cadence, and I think there are several ways to address it.
First, the transmuter shouldn’t be for 2H ranged since they are already very strong, it should be for 2H melee, or possibly for shield builds as well.
And the other point is that the flat damage bonuses should be lower, and the weapon % increased instead. Since you can’t adjust the flat bonuses based on weapon speed like some other games do, making this change would normalize the damage differences a little between the various weapon groups.
The same thing applies to Fire Strike as well.
I think the 100% pass through at rank 12 Fighting Form and increased damage % bonuses the new patch added are a good idea, the current 3.2 FF isn’t really good to level for melee. Once you get to ~3 targets at just rank 4 you really don’t need more.
At the same time, for ranged you get the third projectile too early (rank 3), since that is a 50% damage increase from rank 2.
It would be better if it scaled like +1 projectile at rank 1, +2 at rank 6 and +3 at the final level, and maybe a fourth at max ultimate rank for those who find the way to reach that somehow.
The 100% pierce and 1 reduced charge level would make rifle builds far more user-friendly and it also has a player skill factor where you can improve clear speed by lining up packs of foes.
I wanted to write some more about the transmuter and Zolhan’s for ranged but I really need to go now.
Thank you for this amazing update.
I’m sure many people including me comes to forum everyday just to see if this project has a new great update to provide 
On Cadence:
To me it sounds like Weyu has some really well thought through ideas here, but i can’t claim to be an expert on the topic. (One Blademaster in early access, one Warder in C002). Whatever you guys decide to do is fine by me.
Reserving this post (and to remind myself to reply) to write a response later (as it’s 5:30AM right now). I read your post completely and agree with a lot of it, and for me, too, Cadence (and the Soldier) is my most used skill (and mastery)…even though I’m probably known as ‘that saboteur guy’ since my Soldier builds never took off with people. 
For now, to answer your question quoted above: The problem is as you’ve described further into your post, with the power difference between weapon types. Melee Cadence in v0.3.2 is a little on the weak side, with a gap in power even still between 2H and DW. Ranged Cadence is too strong, with DW being considerably overpowered and Shred being put in place as a means to get 2H to keep up (even if it presently fails in that regard, that is the intent).
First, the transmuter shouldn’t be for 2H ranged since they are already very strong, it should be for 2H melee, or possibly for shield builds as well.
It originally was. The first version of the transmuter was called Ravage and turned Cadence into a melee-area-of-effect skill rather than a target-based-skill. It also provided a bit of lifesteal too. It was too strong and nullified Blade Arc, so we changed it to Shred and moved the lifesteal onto the base Cadence skill, eventually removing that following life leech resistance changes in the base game.
And the other point is that the flat damage bonuses should be lower, and the weapon % increased instead.
We’ve already done this. We originally tried making the flat damage into a range of Physical damage to give the skill some variability for high attack speed weapons, so that they weren’t universally pumping out ludicrous damage numbers (but, in theory, could now and again). We’ve massively bumped up the % Weapon Damage of the skill too, a change which has been mimicked in vanilla GD now for 1.0.0.5. For us, Cadence has 477% Weapon Damage at 16/16, and 760% at 26/16.
the current 3.2 FF isn’t really good to level for melee. Once you get to ~3 targets at just rank 4 you really don’t need more.
Kind of agree.
At the same time, for ranged you get the third projectile too early (rank 3), since that is a 50% damage increase from rank 2.
It would be better if it scaled like +1 projectile at rank 1, +2 at rank 6 and +3 at the final level, and maybe a fourth at max ultimate rank for those who find the way to reach that somehow.
Respectfully, I’m never going to do this nor allow for it to be done (by adoomgod/anyone else who works on Cornucopia). I think that turns the skill into a one-point wonder with minimal incentive to invest in it. Sure, you COULD get that nice 4th projectile if you overcap it, but are you going to? No, probably not, so chances are you’d almost universally invest minimally in it to let +skills take you to some lesser cutoff. That’s suboptimal design, in my opinion, which is part of the challenge: we have to make Cadence - and each of its modifiers, and every other skill/modifier in the game - worth TAKING and INVESTING into while keeping them all BALANCED. It’s certainly no easy task.
I’m looking forward to your more in-depth Cadence post.
Empowered Berserker’s Coil. 157% bonus life!
I’ve been playing Cadence Blademaster in 3.2…
Are you intending to keep Fighting Form adding extra melee targets like it does now in Cornucopia (good!) or back to just 3 targets at 10/10 (kinda bad)? Generally speaking I’m much in favour of reducing the points investment required in the Cadence line - at least when it comes to DW Blademaster. There’s so little room to make meaningful choices the way things are.
On Cadence having 2, 3, 4 or 5 charges… with the new, very inflated damage numbers, it feels like the more often Cadence hits the better, even when I have a load of WPS skills. Cadence hits so hard (and is AOE) it really doesn’t matter if I’m getting slightly fewer WPS activations, so long as I’m getting enough to activate Celestial Powers reasonably often.
A final point. Blade Spirit having a casting time - I often feel like I’m losing “efficiency” if I take the time to stop and cast it. I’d give my right arm for a transmuter that removed the casting time and the ability to aim it (so, always casts on top of my character). (Primal Strike Shaman weaving in Devils and Totems sometimes feels the same way - save for the fact those abilities might be more likely to have useful celestial powers).
maybe blade spirit is meant to be an actual spell instead of a “here’s even more retard easy dmg” ability.
Those responsible have been sacked.
I’m not sure if I understand this part, how would the change turn it into a one point wonder?
Currently Fighting Form gives:
+1 Projectile at rank 1
+2 Projectiles at rank 3
And finally, +3 Projectiles at rank 12
Any ranged Cadence build will always get it to rank 12/12, since the bonus third projectile at no damage loss is just that powerful.
My point is that the power increase from rank 1 to rank 3 is very steep (going from 2 projectiles to 3 means 50% bonus overall DPS).
So moving it to:
+1 at rank 1
+2 at rank 6
+3 at rank 12
Would mean you need to invest 5 extra points after the first instead of only 2 to get the second extra projectile, which makes the progression less spiky.
And it doesn’t feel like there is a big gap from the current rank 3 (where you get the 2nd extra projectile), but then nothing in the next 8 points until you finally get the 3rd extra at 12/12.
Although in both cases you would still get 12/12, this just smoothens the curve a bit. The 4th bonus projectile at 22/12 is just an idea, I thought it might be interesting like a hidden pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. 
As for melee FF, currently it is mostly a one pointer as discussed above, but adopting the 1.0.0.5 changes would probably make it worthwhile to max as melee.
So, about Cadence:
First, I’d like to say that I think the skill is mostly fine as it is in terms of power— any major buffs would almost certainly make it overpowered.
However, what could be different is its appeal of use, or simply how “fun” it is.
The main drawbacks of Cadence are:[b]
-
It doesn’t work well with WPS since the Cadence hit takes their place -
It requires a lot of skill points for relatively low power compared to Fire Strike and Savagery[/b]
The first issue still persists in the vanilla game, that’s why I think changing Cadence to have 3 charge levels would be a good middle-ground between vanilla and 3.2 Cadence.
Before I can talk about changes, first I want to explain what makes the skill work.
The thing about Cadence is that its damage potential varies greatly depending on which weapons you use. I’ll rank them below.
[i]Note: I only have a 2H ranged and a DW melee Cadence character right now, but I did do some quick tests using DW ranged and 2H melee items, just to get an overall idea of how they function.
[/i] -DW ranged: this is the most powerful Cadence setup currently. The combination of :
A) Extra attacks from DW and WPS
B) Extra projectiles from Fighting Form
C) High attack speed
D) High flat damage on the skill
makes it a perfect medium to dish out Cadence hits quickly.
The factors are listed in order of influence, and I’d like to emphasize how important the extra attacks native to dual wielding and also from WPS such as Volley are.
Currently Cadence at high ranks requires 4 normal hits to charge up a Cadence hit. If you have to make every swing individually, it takes very long to charge up.
But DW will have none of that, since you can have multiple shots per click (at increased speed), and they all count toward charging Cadence.
In order to have a strong Cadence build, it’s imperative that you can get off as many hits as quickly as possible.
So as expounded above, DW ranged is ideal to do this, and you even get multiple extra projectiles at full damage— the damage output from this is simply monstrous.
The only thing that stops it from being completely absurd is that its AoE is limited nor do you have a high chance to pierce in 3.2 (this is changed in the new FF).
-DW melee: for the same reasons as above, DW melee is almost as good as DW ranged. Despite Cadence having 4 charge levels, you can typically get a Cadence hit in 2 clicks by stacking WPS that use both weapons. Amarasta’s Quick Cut even counts as 3 hits in 1 for charging it.
At high attack speeds, you get a lot of Cadence hits very quickly and the damage ramps up.
DW melee Cadence actually isn’t strictly worse than DW ranged. Ranged will undoubtedly do more single target damage because of the extra projectiles (quad damage from 4 projectiles opposed to 1 is impossible to beat), but melee Cadence builds give you access to Shadow Strike/Blitz, and they tend to have slightly better close-range AoE clear speed. I would rate DW melee just below DW ranged.
Of the 4 ABCD factors listed under DW ranged, only B doesn’t apply to these builds, but they make up for it with strong WPS and mobility skills.
-2h ranged: I think these builds are just slightly below DW melee, but they are by no means weak.
Of the 4 factors, they only fully make use of B, all the others are inferior compared to DW builds.
So how do they make up for it? They do so through sheer damage output (quad damage from the extra projectiles help a lot).
Currently 2h ranged weapons in 3.2 have a chance to pass through foes advantage over 1h weapons as well, but this is nullified in 1.0.0.5, making DW a little better again.
I think the major problem with rifle Cadence is that it just isn’t fun to play.
Of course fun is a subjective thing, but what makes rifle Cadence unappealing is the typical flow of combat.
You need to shoot 4 times to charge up Cadence, none of these 4 shots do good damage because the Soldier WPS aren’t that great for rifles, and the shots are relatively slow as well.
After that you get the Cadence hit which finishes off your target, but because of its limited AoE, you have to do this several times per pack.
This makes even random packs a chore.
This is especially grating when you’ve conditioned your expectations to the faster charging Cadence at lower levels for most of the character’s life.
But the changes from 1.0.0.5 (100% pass through) and also the suggested maximum of 3 charge levels Cadence would alleviate both of those issues.
-2h melee: these clearly got the short end of the stick.
You can easily see why, because it doesn’t benefit or work well with any of the ABCD factors. Not even one.
Even 2h ranged has the Volley type WPS for a pseudo-multi attack, but as far as I know there is nothing like that for 2h.
-1h & shield: these are in a similar tier as 2h melee, but at least they aren’t as slow as 2h and you get access to the Soldier shield defenses.
I can’t imagine their damage is very good though, due to lack of multi-hitting WPS for both melee and ranged.
Concluding, the first 3 groups are all quite close in power, it’s only the last 2 that are bad.
I don’t think there’s any gameplay reason to play a 2h Cadence build compared to Savagery currently, to bring something up.
Both of these groups don’t really benefit from factors A, B and C.
To address that, I think the transmuter should work for them exclusively and it should be something that increases the rate you can charge Cadence at.
Extra damage isn’t really the answer since you still run into the slow-charging issue compared to DW builds, and putting too much damage could be abused in some way and is hard to balance.
An idea is a transmuter similar to the proc on Quickdraw Gloves— bonus AS for 0.5-1s after the Cadence hit, so you can hit fast for at least one attack after the Cadence hit.
This would alleviate the biggest problem with those weapons, which is that they have no way to charge Cadence quickly.
It wouldn’t add an absurd amount of power since the non-Cadence hits don’t hit hard to begin with, it just allows for more Cadence hits in a time period.
You could make it a 3 point transmuter and add some other interesting side-effects to give it some spice.
The other way to address the disparity between weapons is to further adjust the balance between Weapon Damage % and flat damage.
Your Cadence currently has 477% damage at rank 16, and 760% at rank 26. Divided by 5 (the number of hits needed per Cadence hit), you get the values 95% and 152%.
Vanilla Cadence has 420% and 500% at max and ultimate ranks, divided by 3 you get 140% and 167%.
This doesn’t mean that 3.2 Cadence is worse, since this doesn’t take in account the flat damage.
But since Cadence just got super buffed, the vanilla version is probably better right now.
It does still have that same ABCD problem above, which I think could be mitigated by lowering the flat damage significantly and increasing the WD %.
I don’t have any hard numbers since this is the kind of thing that requires hands-on testing to get a good value.
It’s most likely not the kind of thing Crate would go for, since it’s too niche. But for a mod that is all about fine-tuning game balance, I don’t think it’s too outrageous to consider.
Try out some combinations of WD % and flat damage, and if it turns out to be too good or too bad, you can always adjust it again later.
And if it turns out to be a success, you can deploy similar changes to WPS and FS/Savagery as well.
It is a radical change, but I think it would be a good change in the big scheme of things.
To summarize:
Cadence doesn’t synergize well with WPS.
Suggested solution: increase the charge levels from 2 to 3 at all levels and adjust damage values accordingly.
Cadence is relatively weak compared to other auto-attack replacers.
Solution: adopt the changes to FF and DM from 1.0.0.5.
Cadence is better with fast weapons compared to slow ones.
Solution: give the slow weapons a transmuter that simulates speed.
Secondary solution: increase WD % and lower the flat damage values.
Some other thoughts: if FF and DM are boosted, then DW ranged Cadence will become even stronger.
It may be a good idea to lower the extra projectiles from FF from 3 to 2 at max rank.
The first extra projectile could come at rank 6, and the second at rank 12.
For the ranks in-between, you just get the buffed damage bonuses and chance to pass through, which are nothing to sneeze at.
About Zolhan’s Technique: it currently is no good for 2h ranged, and for DW ranged it’s actually detrimental— you don’t get any extra damage and it only fires with the main hand.
It might be an idea to give it something so ranged builds have more of an incentive to get it.
I think that covers everything I wanted to say.
Can you - or anyone else - confirm this? It used to be that the Nightblade’s WPS that multihit (namely, Amarasta’s Quick Cut) would build charges of Cadence on every hit, but that has since been changed to not be the case for seemingly all weapon pool skills. I’m under the impression that extends to ranged.
Yep, I tested it by slowly attacking a test dummy.
All skills that hit with both hands count as 2 charges, AQC counts as 3.
Volley counts as 3 as well.
Another interesting thing is that you can trigger a multi-hit attack and Cadence at the same time.
For example: you can have 2 normal attacks, then get a Volley proc. It will shoot 3 times in a row and consuming the Cadence hit at the same time, and the extra shots will count toward the next Cadence.
I’m not sure if that Cadence hit uses the Volley or the Cadence damage since it’s hard to see with so many overlapping numbers, but I assume it’s the latter.
Can confirm Weyu’s comment on volley and a few other double hit skills. I’ve mentioned this before. It is possible Cadence simply can’t be balanced for all 4 item types… but I’m thinking that by using vanilla cadence + 2 more transmutors… maybe it can come close? I dunno.
I’m going to cut loose on cadence when we crank it to the new vanilla’s cadence, and pull out all the stops. Boyoooo!
So are the changes from the new patch in there or are they not? The opening post is not updated so I assume we need to wait some more.
I updated the legendary and epic items, as well as the relics. The rest have not been included because A: We’ve been busy and B: We need to discuss what to add and what not to add.
I just noticed this part of the initial post. This isn’t actually how armor piercing and conversion interact - unless it was changed very recently. Conversion happens first then whatever physical damage remains is subject to armor piercing. So if you have 50% phys to chaos and 50% armor piercing on a weapon you’d end up with 50% base chaos, 25% base pierce, and 25% base physical. If anything a high armor piercing chance actually helps magic builds as the leftover physical damage would impact armor but piercing damage wouldn’t.
PS. I’ve been gone for a few days and was just able to check again, the most recent hotfix to the 003 branch still seems not to have taken hold. Reaper’s claw, spellfire wand, and a few others are all still unchanged.