Hello! I’m not sure what sub-forum this should be in so please move it if needed.
I recently registered on the forums because one of the main parts that drew me into Grim Dawn is the lore, and I was hoping for other people’s interpretations of it. AFAIK, it was mentioned awhile back that FG would be Grim Dawn’s final expansion and it seems like enough time has passed for players to have absorbed most of the new lore content.
I guess my main questions are regarding the gods and the ascended (specifically, Ulgrim). I’ve probably missed a fair amount of hidden game lore so hopefully other people can help me. So far, based on what I’ve pieced together, it seems like there are 6 or 7 levels of beings?
Yugol, the Insatiable Night
Based on comments made by Anasteria, Mogdrogen and various other sources (mostly in FG), it seems implied that Yugol is the ultimate enemy or “worst to come” lore-wise? I’m under the impression Yugol is the actual “embodiment” of the void itself but maybe I’m wrong. It only first became known by name in FG.
Ch’thon, the Dying God
The “father” of the gods, ripped apart and scattered to the void. I’m not sure if it’s even a sentient god anymore or just the remnants of a god that have become the twisted puppet of Yugol? I’m guessing it’s probably too early to tell.
The Gods: Empyrion, Korvaak, (assumed) Aeon, Ishtak, Menhir, Ultos, Vire, etc.
The “children” of Ch’thon. The only real lore I found came from Korvaak, with some other bits and pieces from Anasteria and the aetherials. Otherwise, it’s all pretty ambiguous. I’m not sure.
Lesser / Demi-Gods: Lokarr, Mogdrogen, (assumed) Rattosh, etc.
It’s kind of sketchy here but my impression is they’re not true gods but beings approaching god-like power, having been directly appointed by the gods to manage various tasks, but having since been left to their own devices or pursuits following the celestial war Anasteria mentions.
Ravager is kind of a curve ball. I’m not entirely sure where it works in, but it seems like it would be a lesser god?
Ascended: Dreeg, Bysmiel, Horran, Oleron, Solael, Ulgrim, Ulzuin, etc.
Same as above but instead beginning as humans and gaining god-like powers by various means.
It’s learned Dreeg was cursed and appointed to his position by Korvaak, whom then in turn assisted Bysmiel and Solael in subduing Korvaak to “maintain balance.” It seems Bysmiel and Solael are just petty, power-hungry and opportunistic agents of Dreeg, gaining their power by forcibly taking it from Korvaak, and the three of them often disagree with how things should be done. They’re clearly afraid of Korvaak (as Mogdrogen points out) because their power is tied directly to him. Furthermore, based on your interactions with the “oracles,” I’m inclined to think the oracles actually are the witch gods themselves. Their creation myths, statues and everything else are just more smoke and mirrors by Bysmiel in order to protect their cult (and subsequently, themselves) and ensure they’re always present to maintain balance.
Ulgrim is heavily implied to be an ascended, per lore you find from Inquisitor Creed and comments made by Garradia in the Coven’s Refuge, but how or why? I kept hoping you would learn more about his character or wished I had the ability to ask Creed for more information but you never really learn anything about him despite being a major character in the story. Does anyone know? I feel like I missed something.
It’s also implied that the player character is an ascended being (or on their way toward becoming one). Uroboruuk seems to be an ascended being as well but earned that power by completely different means.
Aetherials
The oompa-loompa’s of the gods. It’s mostly ambiguous as to what they were before being cast down following the celestial war or where they really stand in the power ladder. They obviously cannot die, so it could be argued they’re more powerful than the ascended. They seem like relatively weak enemies but their true power is limited or bottle-necked by their host body or form. Overall, I’m not really sure.
Humans, etc.
So… Yeah, I guess that’s it. I’m really interested in hearing what other people think. The story and lore are really done quite brilliantly in my opinion, with a lot of it being left to the player’s interpretation due to its piece meal delivery. FG itself feels a little disjointed (mostly just the suddenness of it) but otherwise, I think it’s pretty fantastic.
Does Ulgrim become an ascended before or after he’s absorbed into the void? It’s heavily implied if not outright stated that an ordinary human wouldn’t be able to survive in the void, but I’m not clear on when/whether Ulgrim acquires those powers.
On the same token, does that mean the player character is ascended as well? We seem to be able to go through rifts wherever and whenever the heck we want with no ill effects whatsoever. (Oops, didn’t notice you mentioned this)
We go through riftgates and summon them at will because we still have aetherial energy in us after being possessed by an aetherial. And i recall Ulgrim became an ascendant a long time, way before the game begins.
Then again, the ascendant theory was created by Creed, we don’t know if it’s true or not.
you can post stuff about lores in the general discussion section. lores have no impact
on gameplay anyway. gameplay sections is about number crunching and gameplay
guides.
also, there’s a sticky thread in general discussion that specifically discuss lore.
be warned though, it has archived hundreds of pages. so you have to use
search function a lot to read parts you want to see.
Please, don’t use the word “energy” for explanations, it will scare off some people who are more used to more conservative meaning of that word. Consider it last resort that GD lore does not need, it can perfectly fit into more conventional view of things, you just have to accept that aether and aetherials exist - not too much for a fiction story :).
Now what do aetherials do? They mess with subject brains. Right - you even gather these as crafting materials. It is then obvious that they alter subject’s neural structure to alter personality and create new skills. When the aetherial left, that work on the hero’s neural tissue remained with the hero, aetherial couldn’t take solid flesh with it, and wouldn’t need it. Flesh remained with the hero. And so did new skills.
I’m not sure Anasteria and Mog were talking about Yugol at all. It does indeed look like some sort of embodiment of the Void thought, impossible to describe and always consuming everything. Seems like it’s not playing any direct role in the current events. It does appear in the dreams of some of the cultists of Dreeg but isn’t involved in the events from FG from what i can tell.
Ch’thon, the Dying God
The “father” of the gods, ripped apart and scattered to the void. I’m not sure if it’s even a sentient god anymore or just the remnants of a god that have become the twisted puppet of Yugol? I’m guessing it’s probably too early to tell.
I’m not sure Yugol is any more sentient. I think Ch’ton has some sentience left but maybe not “all his mind”. Is he actually the “father” of all gods or is it just a story used by his cultists to justify their blood rituals? After all the other gods are called “primordial” gods which sort of means they were the first so maybe he was just a god among others rather than the “father” of all gods.
The Gods: Empyrion, Korvaak, (assumed) Aeon, Ishtak, Menhir, Ultos, Vire, etc.
The “children” of Ch’thon. The only real lore I found came from Korvaak, with some other bits and pieces from Anasteria and the aetherials. Otherwise, it’s all pretty ambiguous. I’m not sure.
Lesser / Demi-Gods: Lokarr, Mogdrogen, (assumed) Rattosh, etc.
It’s kind of sketchy here but my impression is they’re not true gods but beings approaching god-like power, having been directly appointed by the gods to manage various tasks, but having since been left to their own devices or pursuits following the celestial war Anasteria mentions.
Ravager is kind of a curve ball. I’m not entirely sure where it works in, but it seems like it would be a lesser god?
Again, not sure about the father/children relationship. We don’t have any list of the “real” gods (the primordial ones) vs. lesser or demi-gods but it’s heavily implied there are primordial gods who created countless worlds and then other “gods” who came to fill the empty “job” when the primordial gods vanished after their war. That war saw 2 sides, one of which decided to harness the power of the void and from those we know even less. Who were they, what did they become? What was Ch’ton’s role in all of this (if any). We don’t even really know what the “void” is except for the fact that it’s not empty at all.
There’s very few gods i’m sure were primordial ones : Empyrion and Korvaak for sure, Ch’ton also (maybe even their father) but others we don’t really know.
It seems like Mog is indeed a lesser god, sort of protector of the world after the Primordial gods left.
Ravager is referred to as a “spirit”, not a god and clearly served Mog at some point so for me it’s lower in the “hierarchy”.
I see Lokaar as somewere near Ravager in terms of hierarchy but under a different name because he’s not a manifestation of the natural world.
Ascended: Dreeg, Bysmiel, Horran, Oleron, Solael, Ulgrim, Ulzuin, etc.
Same as above but instead beginning as humans and gaining god-like powers by various means.
Ascended seem to be a word used for different things that would fall at different placed in the Hierarchy.
I would place the Witch Gods for instance at equal with Mog, even thought he might not agree. They ascended to godly power when they took the Eldritch Throne from Korvaak and even thought they had to share that power, Korvaak was a primordial god so more powerful than Mog. Birthright be damned, they are not anything less then him now.
For me, Ulzuin is more than an ascended, at least a demi-god. He calls Empyrion “father” and i don’t think it’s metaphorical. Just because he served Korvaak doesn’t mean he’s not a real god at least a lesser god) himself
Old Korvan religion “ascended” were definitely humans invested with some fraction of divine power, giving them increased longevity. They were reverted as gods but were not real gods and (most) would eventually die and their title would pass to their children.
It’s learned Dreeg was cursed and appointed to his position by Korvaak, whom then in turn assisted Bysmiel and Solael in subduing Korvaak to “maintain balance.” It seems Bysmiel and Solael are just petty, power-hungry and opportunistic agents of Dreeg, gaining their power by forcibly taking it from Korvaak, and the three of them often disagree with how things should be done. They’re clearly afraid of Korvaak (as Mogdrogen points out) because their power is tied directly to him. Furthermore, based on your interactions with the “oracles,” I’m inclined to think the oracles actually are the witch gods themselves. Their creation myths, statues and everything else are just more smoke and mirrors by Bysmiel in order to protect their cult (and subsequently, themselves) and ensure they’re always present to maintain balance.
I think you’re spot on about the cult leaders. Bysmiel is described as a very attractive women with emerald eyes. I also don’t think their names are a coincidence.
They are rightfully afraid of Korvaak because they know he’s stronger than they are and they know his vengeance will be terrible if he can recover his seat of power.
Ulgrim is heavily implied to be an ascended, per lore you find from Inquisitor Creed and comments made by Garradia in the Coven’s Refuge, but how or why? I kept hoping you would learn more about his character or wished I had the ability to ask Creed for more information but you never really learn anything about him despite being a major character in the story. Does anyone know? I feel like I missed something.
Ulgrim was definitely an ascendant before he was taken to the void, which is why Creed is so afraid about it (he tells this if you ask him some questions outside of the quest text). Nobody really knows how long he’s been around as far as i can tell, nor how he became an Ascendant.
It’s also implied that the player character is an ascended being (or on their way toward becoming one). Uroboruuk seems to be an ascended being as well but earned that power by completely different means.
Ascendant means a lot of things but mostly : more than a mere human. The PC has powers because of the Aetherial energy left in his body (Kasparov tells you this) and also because the Aetherial who possessed him/her was in the process of modifying his brain as the witch you free from the “stooges” tells you. On a related note being able to survive the Void isn’t really a sure sign of being an Ascendant. Dravis can travel through the void and i don’t think he’s an ascendant (he would sure like). Even more you find some Bloodbounds trapped into one of the void that you can free. Those are definitely common human beings. As Dalia says “we don’t all handle exposure to the void equally”, that’s all. Surviving for a long time is another story but that could simply be explained by lack of food or water. After all the witches of Ugdenbog used to cross the void to travel as Garradia explains so it’s probably somewhat safe for most humans to enter briefly into the void.
Uroboruuk got his power voluntarily through much darker means.
Aetherials
The oompa-loompa’s of the gods. It’s mostly ambiguous as to what they were before being cast down following the celestial war or where they really stand in the power ladder. They obviously cannot die, so it could be argued they’re more powerful than the ascended. They seem like relatively weak enemies but their true power is limited or bottle-necked by their host body or form. Overall, I’m not really sure.
I see them as sort of Angels which is reinforced by the form Theodin Marcell and Allostria take during the fights. Fallen angels as it stands.
As i understand it they served the gods which didn’t tap into the void (Empyrion, Korvaak, others) since they hate the Ch’tonians which would mean that side lost the war and the Void side was the one that banished them to the Aether that i understand as a plane where matter doesn’t exist and everything is purely energy.
As you said they were servants of the gods, probably at the same place as the Ascendants in the Hierarchy. Maybe a bit higher since they were the original servants (at least the high ranking Aetherials)
Why not? Magical energy is a common concept in fantasy and terms like “raw Aether energy” are used in the game. Yes Aether and Aetherials exist but so does Aether energy. How would you create magical effect without magical energy? :rolleyes:
Some other developers and authors using the term isn’t a good excuse when it ruins an otherwise pretty picture. GD lore does not try to explain everything like say Diablo. Because no one cared to write it in detail, but for the better. I think this should serve as a good example of D2 lore. I suppose its good to impress younger players. GD lore is remarkably holding together well without resorting to things like that. So no need to force them. I think
I want to add that there was a possed one in the Fleshworks which you can free or attack who mentions that there are “higher atherieals” who do not even know what is going on but sadly theres no further information as far as I know.
I think that Ulzuin was once human, if you read the notes about his behavior it’s pretty clear he once enjoyed the pleasures of the mortal world. He’s probably an ascendant although that word seems to have more than one meaning sometimes. The witch gods could be called ascendants too, they were once mortal and became more and that’s all it seems to mean.
Anyway Chton and Empyrion are copied straight out of greco roman mythology, Empyrion being the son (Zeus, Jupiter) that replaces his father (Kronos, Saturnus) in some unpleasant way. In GD lore the father is cut into many pieces, not really a more pleasant fate than the old myths, but a bit more PG for sure.
I place Cthon and Korvaak on the same level, same age and power. Sort of. I think. It’s intentionally left vague in the game I guess.
I keep releasing that one and for what? An unfinished little side story.
From the lore he drops after been defeated he seems to be a child of Ch’ton, he speak of “brothers and sisters” and later he speaks of the people believing of his “brother” returns and use this opportunity to rise again no much of a doubt that he’s speaking of Empyrion.
how exactly is the term “energy” for magic ruining any lore or picture? Energy can be anything, warmth, light, electricity, magnetism, kinetic… and as Arthur Clarke once said: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Just say, that Aetherials have highly advanced technology, but call it magic so the simple human mind can understand it.
I’m pretty sure they use it in a slightly different sense. Do not confuse arcane dynamics for some occultist nonsense, thats profanity. Energy is the means to do it, not the doer. Aetherial, eldritch, or any other for that matter.
No, they use it in the literal sense, it’s energy. Don’t know what’s your beef with the word energy anyway, like using another word that has the same meaning makes any difference.
I’ll call it aetherial energy because that’s what the game calls it.
