Grim Dawn Mechanics 101, aka Please pity the noob and help w/basic questions about building

Hello and thanks for reading.

Just so it’s clear, I have searched other posts, and read wikis, and sought other sources. So this thread is not the result of pure laziness. That said, if I’ve missed something obvious that will throw open the doors of build knowledge, please feel free to just point me to it and consider the matter resolved.

(EDIT: I actually did find some answers in one obvious resource I, rather embarrassingly, missed, but thankfully just found on my own: http://www.grimdawn.com/guide/gameplay/combat.php)

What I’m looking for here are some basic answers (explain as if to a child) on mechanics and the whys and why nots of character building. I acknowledge that there are many paths to take, and so many exceptions, but it helps to have a Grim Dawn 101 as a foundation.

Also, I know that some of the below seem obvious — and I do feel that I have a pretty good idea of what the answer is for these — but it’d still be nice to confirm it and make sure there isn’t greater complexity than initially meets the eye.

And I’d rather have a primer so I build myself vs. a build guide that just let’s me copy someone else’s character (though I do see the value of these). As the saying goes, “Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, but teach him to fish and he will eat for lifetime.” (Those little chestnuts never get old, do they?)

So, on to the questions…

Weapon and Equipment Damage Bonuses
Q: Do bonuses on weapons and equipment, like “+18% Poison Damage”, apply to all of the character’s weapon, spell/skill, devotion- and component-based attacks? (Not talking about bonuses like (+20-35 Fire Damage) or “+% Weapon Damage”, just non-%-Weapon-Damage percent bonuses, like the poison example above.)

Damage Bonus Stacking
Q: Do all damage bonuses stack or is there a limit or “we just apply the highest one” rule?

Weapon-attack-only Damage vs. All Damage
Q: What about weapon skills applying just to weapon damage vs. all damage? Like Savagery…just weapon or, if I’ve got some stacks going, will its bleed bonus then apply to, say, Devouring Swarm? Is it safe to assume that it applies to other skills/spells when it has a duration, like 5 seconds of + 15% Bleeding Damage?

Physical vs. Magical Damage
Q: Is there any meaningful difference between the Physical Damage (which includes bleed, pierce, etc.) and Magical Damage categories other than that Cunning boosts the former and Spirit the latter?

Duration Damage
Q: Certain damage has related “duration damage” (e.g., Lightning and Electrocute)? Why is this “related” when certain skills/modifiers seem to do just Lightning and others just Electrocute. Should these be treated as individual damage types, the same as Cold and Acid?

“Flat” Damage vs. Modified
Q: Spells/skills that are “+% of weapon damage” seem pretty straightforward. But is this just “flat” damage (an axe that does 16-32 unmodified) or do other bonuses/multipliers, etc. factor in?

Dual Wielding
Q: What about dual wielding - does the bonus on the left-hand weapon apply to the right-hand weapon too?

Dual Wielding vs. Off-hands
Q: Dual wielding has obvious appeal, but, in many cases, is it a mistake to value it over just a 1h weapon w/an offhand item? Many times, those off-hand items provide very significant bonuses. I’m sure it’s build specific, but is it often better to use an off-hand item (especially if your main damage comes from spell skills rather than melee attacks)?

Shields vs. Off-hands
Q: If a shield and an off-hand item offer the same bonuses (e.g., +15% Fire Damage), is there any reason not to go with the shield, which will mitigate some incoming damage as well?

Armor Piercing and Bypass
Q: Is bypassing armor (as, for example, piercing damage does) a very significant factor throughout the game, or is it only of particular value against relatively few enemies and bosses?

Physique vs. Cunning vs. Spirit
Q: Why does it seem like the majority of builds are physique based, even casters? Is it that health and qualifying for certain gear is always the smarter route than obtaining the damage and other bonuses from, say, spirit?

Value of Health Regen
Q: Health regen ("+6 Health Regenerated Per Second") initially appears very attractive, but then seems to have little actual effect. Is this because it only applies outside of combat? Or is it because foes are one-shotting you with 250 damage and your Wolverine-like healing factor is giving you a measly, say, +25 per second. So it will take 10 seconds to heal from that one hit, and by that time the fight is either over or you’ve gotten hit far more times and are at a radical health deficit.

% Regen Boosts vs. [Amount[/Second
Q: When an item says “Increases Energy Regeneration by 50%”, is this simply a matter of taking your innate, spirit- and item-based energy regen (say it’s 30/second) and adding 50% to it (so, now 45/second)?

Armor vs. Resistances vs. Health
Q: Is it generally better to have more armor or resistances? At what point might one elect higher armor vs. a resistance bonus (like you have one item with 25 armor and +15% fire resistance vs. 100 armor w/no resistance bonus)?

What about health? How does getting more of it stack up vs. armor and resistances?

Investing Points - Mastery vs. Skills
Q: Most builds seem to rush mastery, and only then go back and add points to boost specific skills. Is this because the attribute bonuses you get with each mastery level yield superior results to bumping up skills, which tend to offer incremental gains and diminishing returns? Or is it to build you health pool up as high as possible because health/survivability trumps nearly all else?

Component-based Granted Skills
Q: Are skills from components (e.g., Slam or Poison Bomb) treated the same as character skills? Do all modifiers, like +% Physical Damage or +% Poison Damage apply equally to them too?

The Value of Offensive and Defensive Ability
Q: Can you offer a sense of the value of Offensive and Defensive Ability? I get that they affect whether you hit and crit (Offensive) and whether you effectively dodge an attack or prevent a crit (Defensive), but are these things you should generally let your abilities (cunning and physique) take care of, or is it worth equipping items that may, say, boost them by just 5% or 10%?

Constitution
Q: Is Constitution only a factor when it’s entirely depleted?

Weapon and Spell Procs
Q: What are the rules around procs? Can multiple procs trigger at once? Any limitations? If the proc is not “+% Weapon Damage”, then are you always better off using faster weapons and boosting your attack speed?

I think that about does it. And it’s quite enough. But I certainly invite anyone else to add their own likely far more insightful questions to the mix.

And for all you willing to take the time to share your expertise, thank you.

Weapon and Equipment Damage Bonuses
Yes, almost always. Check your characters damage sheet, and if that damage type went up, every source of that damage is boosted by that stat. Items and devotions will up everything. Sometimes, a passive on ability will only up the damage for that one ability not everything though

Damage Bonus Stacking
+% to damages all stack and same with attack speed.

Weapon-attack-only Damage vs. All Damage
Savagery’s passive parts are ONLY active if you have at least 1 stack. So when you have at least one stack you will get all the stuff it says and a lot of it applies to your characters sheet. You can smack the training dummy and look at your sheet to see what changes.

Physical vs. Magical Damage
Physical damage has to go through armor while magical just the resistances. However physical resistances are usually way lower than the magical resistances. They are both just damage buffed by different stuff and resisted by different stuff. Not insanely different no

Duration Damage
Spirit buffs all types of magical duration damages (frostburn, burn, ect) so if spirits gives you +50% there, it will put that +50% on every type. You can still find specific buffs, like “+10% to burn” in which case you now have +50% on everything and +60% on burn.

“Flat” Damage vs. Modified
I’m not sure how this is calculated

Dual Wielding
If it goes on your character sheet, it applies to everything you do. So if the weapon does 10 piercing damage every hit, it probably doesnt work with the other hand. But if it gives you +10% piercing damage, then yes it will buff the other weapon if it does piercing damage

Dual Wielding vs. Off-hands
completely build and character dependent and everything has been played through ultimate for sure (shield, 2h, dual wield, guns, guns with caster offhand, 1h with caster… everything!). It would be hard to say which is objectively best

Shields vs. Off-hands
Shields will almost always have worse magic damage bonuses and not have cooldown reduction, casting speed, magic stuff. Some spells cannot be cast with a shield. Some abilities require a shield. Mages can often use a shield instead of the off hand at a cost of lower damage and other magical stats like energy regen or cooldown reduction. Up to you

Armor Piercing and Bypass
pierce damage is still defended by your enemies pierce resistance. Lowering your enemies resistances is indeed very powerful. Lowering enemy armor is less effective

Physique vs. Cunning vs. Spirit
This is because if you want to beat ultimate you have to take some huge damage even as a mage. So you need a good hp pool to live. Your damage and energy regen will still be fine because from the class mastery you get so much energy and spirit. You cannot put too few points in physique or you will get one shot in ultimate or even elite.

Value of Health Regen
You always regen from this stat if you’re damaged. It’s mostly a fighter stat where you are always taking damage and always healing through it. If your hp regen is high enough, you can out-regen poisons and other damage over time. Also you some mobs wont be able to out-dps your regen. Ranged characters care about it a lot less than face tanks

% Regen Boosts vs. [Amount[/Second
yes

Armor vs. Resistances vs. Health
Resistances are absolutely key for higher difficulties and the best end-game builds will have every one maxed out except possibly stun or aether (since it’s so hard to find stuff to resist it). Your best gear will naturally have good armor and you do not necessarily need to focus on increasing it further but as a fighter you will want to for sure. All characters need high resistances in ultimate

Investing Points - Mastery vs. Skills
This is in part due to experienced players knowing which skills mow down everything on veteran the fastest and how few points they need to do so. For example you can just rush blade arc with a couple points in it and keep it that way for a super long time just melting stuff. In the end it doesn’t matter “how” you level up it just matters what you end up with at lv85. Unless you are playing hardcore. In general I would say this: no damage -> points in abilities. too squishy/cant wear gear -> points in mastery

Component-based Granted Skills
yes

The Value of Offensive and Defensive Ability
It depends a bit on whether you are an auto attack build, ability build, tank or gunner. OA is incredibly important. If you hit 90% of the time, and then find the OA to make that 100%, you are basically modifying your TOTAL damage by 10% PLUS you crit more!! OA is most important for weapon based damage dealers (opposed to abilities or spells) but it still makes your spells hit and crit too. DA is the reverse and prevents you from taking 10 000 damage crits from bosses. Also if it’s high enough, mobs cant hit you much (70% hit rate or so). To put in perspective how important it is, every single “fire strike” demolitionist maxes flashbang. It lowers enemy DA by a huge amount which is basically like increasing your own OA. All it really does is lower DA and it’s one of the best skills in the game for auto attack builds

Constitution
no. the size of the pool determines how fast it is depleted. Constitution is the amount of out of combat fast healing you can do. So when it runs out you cant fast heal anymore.

Weapon and Spell Procs
The “Chance to activate” weapon skills can only happen one at a time. So if you have 30% chance on one, and 10% on the other, what you really have is “40% chance to do a proc” and then if it procs, you have “75% chance of one and 25% chance of the other”. Do not go over a sum of 100% chance to activate across your weapon proc skills as it dilutes your proc pool and is just kind of a waste. Attack speed is huge for proc builds to just spam them out but most do %weapon damage so that plays a big role too.

As for devotions, most devotion procs have a cooldown of around 1-8 seconds so you try to just trigger it every cooldown. You cant put two devotions on the same ability so you can only proc one at a time with each ability. But their cooldowns are independent and you can throw out 5 spells and proc all 5 in a huge burst if that’s what you wanna do.

Exceptionally helpful, Goat. Thanks so much.

As I said in the original post, I had a pretty good sense of what the answers would be in most cases, but having them confirmed will allow me to proceed in confidence, and for that I’m most grateful.

The only point that wasn’t entirely clear was a minor one, Constitution. I understand that once it’s gone, fast healing is out. It’s also clear that the less you have of it to begin with, the faster it will be depleted. And if you don’t find an item (e.g., food) that refreshes your Constitution after a fight, you’ll have a smaller pool to get to zero.

All I was asking is whether, besides the above, your character is in any way affected by a lower, but not depleted Constitution (e.g., does your character perform any differently with Constitution at full vs. 50%). My sense is no — there is no difference between full Con and partial Con levels…you’ll only feel it when it’s completely gone/depleted. Correct?

Happy to receive any further input and insight.

Thanks!

No problem, enjoy the game!

Constitution literally only fast heals you out of combat. When it runs out is that you cannot fast heal and must heal through potions or something else. So ya, your guy functions the same on all other points if your constitution is low

The Flat Damage put through % Weapon Damage is at first unmodified, but then modified by any % Damage you have on your gear/buffs and/or by any % Damage attached to that skill/its modifiers.

I´m using this thread instead opening a new one because I like the topic´s name.

It´s my first playthrough with my hero (right now 67 Elite) and I still dont knwo lots of mechanics even when I red guides to it.

Right now I play a Nightblade/Occultist with a goal to dualwield with poison. Somehow, bcs lack of mechanics and knowledge, this doesnt go very well. I´ve a mix of items and weapons with lot´s of modifiers focusing on Pierce and Poison/Acid.

Some stuff have “converts physical into poison” and some items have “+ y% physical” (example). Now I´m a bit helpless, does only the fixed amount of physical dmg converted into poison or does the game summarize all physical dmg bonus first and then convert the amount into poison?

And another one: My build has mostly pierce and poison, as mentioned with lots of “converts into x/y”. When I have an item “converts 40% physical into pierce” and another item “converts 40% into poison”, am I just doing 20% physical dmg or still 100% with the bonus of 40% each piercing/poison?

% Regen Boosts vs. [Amount[/Second
Q: When an item says “Increases Energy Regeneration by 50%”, is this simply a matter of taking your innate, spirit- and item-based energy regen (say it’s 30/second) and adding 50% to it (so, now 45/second)?

The formula for regeneration as seen on your character sheet is calculated as follow:

  1. +(x) energy reg from spirit
  2. and +(x) energy reg from gears and devotions and skills multiplied by +(x)% energy regeneration from gears devotions and skills.

That means the energy regeneration from spirit is okay but negligible, and +% energy reg is useless on its own, until you have a comfortable amount of flat energy regeneration from gears devotions and skills already.

If your weapon shows 100 physical damage and 10% is converted to another damage type, your weapon will now deal 90 physical damage and 10 damage of this other damage type.

If your conversion exceeds 100%, the numbers will be slightly different but the formula remains the same, you essentially don’t get anything going over 100%.

Some conversions only modify specific skills (ex: Nidalla’s Hidden Hand only converts the flat piercing damage on some other skills into acid damage) and won’t impact your weapon damage when you auto attack or cast skills with a weapon damage modifier.

Unless specified otherwise, conversion only affects your weapon that you use to auto attacks and to cast weapon damage skills.

In your situation, I would try to maximize acid&poison and pierce damage with acid&poison and pierce damage multipliers % while also getting your hand on whatever weapon conversion from physical to pierce/acid you find (usually found on components and gears)

Thanks for your answer and I got it.

Sadly, another question: What if my Poison/Pierce (combined) has a conversion above 100%? Example: 60% Pierce conversion and 50% poison conversion.

I´m peeking into the guides here in the forum and there´s lots stuff for game mechanics (which I still dont get it). So asking a direct questin would help me more.
First time, I´m addicted to an ARPG. Was never attached to Diablo and co but Grim Dawn hooked me after few minutes. Sadly, I´m an absolute noob here

First of all, you have to distinguish between a weapon dealing x% as piercing damage and conversion.

Assuming your weapon deals 100 physical with 60% piercing, then your weapon damage is as follows

  • 20 physical
  • 60 pierce
  • 20 poison

Assuming your weapon deals 100 physical with 0% piercing and 60% piercing conversion and 50% poison conversion, then your weapon deals

  • 0 physical
  • 55 pierce (100 * 60 / 110)
  • 45 poison (100 * 50 / 110)

Alright, I got this!

Thanks and sorry for my confusing questions. GD has so many modifiers that I was overrun. Took me hours until I learned that poison is a flat dmg type and acid the DoT type. The same for resistance. For elite I maxed the “main resistance”, progressing through elite I face more stuns, freezes and longer slows.

…other way around. :stuck_out_tongue:

throwing dozen papers of spreadheets

AHHH, godda… whatever…