I, personally, am not arguing that there are builds devs don’t know about. I have no idea if they do or not. I do think that there were builds doing sub 4 minute 150-170 Crucible runs does imply that there are at least a few builds the devs didn’t anticipate; but I can also believe they did anticipate those builds. But to be 100% honest, I really don’t care if they did or not.
I am making a subjective argument: the game is less fun when the number of items with non-obvious uses decreases. You are free to disagree. But I strongly feel if the game was “Level to 100, pick skill, use set tailored to that skill”, the game would be much less interesting than it is.
I conceded in my original post that +1 skills wasn’t all that creative. But it was more creative than its current incarnation.
I would keep the change as is, I am not asking for a revert to Cataclysm (even though I do have two pets builds that used it, I have since adjusted).
I am just saying that something I really like is when set items are occasionally BIS items for builds that don’t use that set. Example: Heart of Ulzuin amulet (lowered cooldown on Blast Shield, health restored to Blast Shield); Spellscourge amulet (lowered cooldown on Overguard). I suppose one could argue that such special effects should either exist only as set bonuses, or as part of non-set items; but I personally would find that less interesting. In other words: if set items are only BIS when used with the full set, I find that less interesting than when set items are occasionally (not always, not even commonly) BIS for builds that don’t use that set.
I understand, you are defending your point and that’s fair. I’m fairly defending mine, I didnt say the playstyle never existed. I think there is a misunderstanding happening here and you may not be receiving the message I’m trying to express.
I’m in support of @Contragor’s arguements because his builds, his builds specifically and his approach to building and experiencing the game in general, is what brought a LOT of freshness and originality to this game, for me, as a noob learning and reading about builds. A Dervish pet build? I mean come on man, sure pet builds and the playstyles existed prior, but on a Dervish? You cant tell me that’s not interesting. It was the first one I had ever seen or read about, and the only one. Unique.
If it uses a 2H or a different off-hand, what is the complaint about this off-hand change, then? !!! Plus, as jabby mentioned there is also arcane wastes.
The build is affected by the conduit changes which removed the +1 BS limit replacing it with fire damage bonuses.
The offhand was mentioned to point out that the devs are reducing the pool of special stats on gear either entirely (empowered essence of beronath) or moving it to full set bonus (Stronghold, Cataclysm).
And I’m still mad at Zantai for nerfing the Frigid Barrel of the Relentless North! I was this close to making a really cool build with those guns!
I wanted to use this example to point out how +1-to-skills alternatives can also kill some variety. This ammy is cool, but imho it’s so much overshadowed by Mythical Pestilence - but dreeg set ammy is ok in the set.
It’s fairly limited where you will not want the +1 to boost all the base skills over a bit of fun eye spams. As an early filler, perhaps. I have used the dreeg set ammy as such, but I also know that I am ultimately limiting the build by doing so.
I agree that +1 all skills on a single item can lower build diversity due to that item outclassing all alternatives. That is exactly what happened with Cataclysm and Stronghold. And Fettan Mask for that matter. Pestilence vs Gem of Dreeg, as you said, is another example (not +all skills but +skills to the masteries likely to be using it)
What I think people are saying is: yes, remove +skills. But please add something back to the item that allows the item to keep its unique status.
To be fair, I think the devs do support this concept. Damage types on shields this patch, for example. There are many items that are special, and not just a collection of standard stats. And this patch probably added more (I’ve yet to find any of the new legendaries and I’m trying hard not to spoil myself by looking them up). But - it would be nice if +skills items that were unique before, remained unique in some fashion after the +skills were removed.
Example: Cataclysm’s Eye lost +skills, moved to set. How about adding a very rare proc that instantly kills one non-boss mob (100% life reduction maybe, since I think bosses are immune)? Why would it be interesting? Because then pet builds could use it with Black Scourge/Bonescavengers to actually get a kill, thus triggering their unique procs that otherwise are almost never going to go off. Pet Necromancers might then skill up Foul Eruption since they could occasionally get a kill. And so on. The item wouldn’t look like an obvious item for those builds because it does not have pet bonuses; it doesn’t even have the right damage types; but it makes for a non-obvious build and makes the game more fun, IMO.
To balance something as complex as this game is super difficult because of so many variables and potential usages, but it is a worthwhile pursuit and I applaud the devs to undertake it in the face of criticism. Unintended consequences can always be addressed in a later patch if need be provided there are valid arguments.
Concerning +1 to all skills on items, just like the poster earlier who mentioned Stonebinder Cuffs item from TQ, they reduce build diversity because such items are just too good. If an item has it, then it should be in conjunction with penalties to make builders think twice about blindly incorporating it, eg, double cooldowns, or reduction in attributes like -10% physique/cunning/spirit, or -100% armor on the item so you risk a critical attack killing stroke by a boss, or something else creative but penalising.
edit to make explicit I am referring to +1 to ALL skill items. +1 to a class I think is acceptable as long as its rare
While I’m totally in favor of creative out of the box theory rafting, I fail to understand how this approach could be ruined by a change to two items. It’s even more contradictory with Night whispers which is more creative now than ever.
There are two cases when it outclasses all alternatives:
One is when the other, specialist options get outclassed due to the power of +1 to all skills combined with other stats.
The other is when NO OPTIONS EXIST for many mastery combinations. This is definitely the case of empowered essence of beronath and saboteur, which gets supplanted by infiltrator, purifier or even spellbreaker on both it’s damage types, at all levels of gear.
To continue on the second point, there are 36 mastery combinations in grim dawn. Some get relevant gear without much effort at all levels of play (Infil, purifier, warlord, even deceiver and mage hunter), while others (warloCK, Sabo) are forced to play with items made for the other combinations that already have stronger synergies to boot!
yeah, but the thing is: There IS saboteur support.
Harra’s set and to a lesser extent, the Rimetongue set. But as it stands, much of saboteurs rely overwhelmingly on +1 to all skills or ultra-generalist sets like shattered realm to get through the day. (And if they don’t, they are literally worse versions of builds made on other mastery combinations)
