If you need someone to spar ideas with you know where to find me 
Time to put on some some large expensive hats and think about crafting. What do we want crafting to be? We want it to be rewarding. We want it to stay rewarding for a while. We want it to be engaging/fun. And most of all, we want it not to be annoying. First of all, what is the fun part of crafting? Probably the satisfaction of of gathering all the materials and getting good gear out of it. One of the things I loved about D2 was the runes and runewords. You pretty much never had all of the runes you needed to make one and the correctly socketed white items, and could spend anywhere from an hour to months (and sometimes years, I hear) looking for everything you needed. The issue with runewords was that they ended up being far better then the items you could find, and many were impossible to find because of the runes/white items being so rare. So, crafting cannot have items that are to weak, or to powerful. You should also avoid making materials so rare that nobody can find them except for the botters and the lucky. Finally, what makes crafting annoying? All the crap in your inventory, grinding mats and having to go back to town to dump the things you needed in the future into an array variable/stash. (Is that how you guys do it? That’s how I would do it.) Now that we have all the materials required to make a fun crafting system, let’s hit the create button and see what happens.
The Ideal Crafting System
First off, where to craft? In most games you take a trip back to town and interact in some way with some guy or some rock. But this is Grim Dawn. Town is hard to come by. It will further advance the atmosphere of the game if there are crafting stations out in the environment. Say you just finished exterminating the local zombie hordes, and you have a crapload of bad/ok but not quite good enough loot and maybe some other class loot. Instead of buying a airline ticket and flying home, why not take you junk to the neighborhood decrepit blacksmith shop? Say some of the stuff is made of iron. Instead of selling it, just break it into iron coins. Stitch the cultist’s robe together with the zombie skin and make a robe with a skin hood. Make sure the crafting system involves some salvaging, as that will also help game’s feel. Show that Cairn has been altered vastly by the invaders. Maybe for one material, you have to go and pick some plant. But maybe this plant is mutated, and has become carnivorous. It’s flow and interesting/fun ways to gather materials that make crafting a good thing for a game. Lastly, the big problem. Inventory space. Crafting systems out in the environment would help to curb this problem, but we can do better then that. Here’s an idea… why not make some sort of gem that is able to “compress” items. These gems could drop or even be crafted, but would have to be somewhat rare. Say you can drag and drop a item into the gem, which could hold any number of items, there could even be multiple gem tiers. Then when you do finally need to go back to town you can pay iron to have someone break the gem and get your items out. Maybe the gem could have positive or negative side effects on the items depending on the used gem. Just some food for thought.
sounds like every other uninspired system we have out there.
1. Why Crafting?
In the universe of Grim Dawn we live in a world where resources are scarce. Instead of gold people trade in whalefat and other items. Making the most of resources means being creative. And creative people always try to create their own clothes, shelters, hunting equipment etc. Not to mention such people would salvage anything they can to use as resources. Crafting in that sense would be a natural part of the game when done correctly. And it deserves a lot of attention to make it more then the regular gather resources then click the create button. That is a dreadful system.
2. Craft Simulation
Crafting needs to be an active part of the game. Something that players can use some of their “skill” like they would in a battle. This means not everybody wants to use the craft system and that is just the sacrifice I’m willing to make. Instead of “leveling” a craft attribute in order to unlock other items to make we could go another way. With a crafting simulation you have some simple, yet seemingly logical, crafting processes going on.
The player determines which action, in which order to fulfill. In case of smelting even go so far as to regulate the heat to some degree. Metalsmiths can decide which hammer to use or to use cold or iced water to cool off items. Or decide how many layers of steel to bend. Simple put have the player decide which actions to perform in a certainly timed order. Since it is a hack and slash game you don’t have to go into too much depth and detail, but it would be nice to have player interaction in a crafting system.
Each successful action increases the skill level instead of simply doing mass production of a single item and thus increasing the level. And such an interactive way would also effect the possibility of a failed attempt or a flawed creation.
This is a stretch for a Grim Dawn like game. But it would be nice if you could choose different hilts and blades to put together for somewhat unique looking weapons. Or add dyes for those creating long coats and hats. Would add some visual customization as an extra reward.
I don’t like working with points in a craft system. So the only “points” given is the ability to turn metalworking into a specialization of armor or weapon smithy for example.
Since not everybody will enjoy the crafting aspect it shouldn’t really add anything special early on. Save that for the high end specialization crafts. Those who put in the time and effort should reap a reward for it. Most of the items should be kept on par with what drops. The feeling of being self reliant and making a mild profit would be motivation enough for most crafters. Save the really good items for later on or via a recepy-system.
Not sure whether to incorporate a hidden stat used in the craft or to go by pure player skill to determine success and quality checks of the created item.
3. Who crafts what?
I also like the idea that not everybody can do any craft they’d want and pick it up. A strong big handed warrior is hardly suited for finer crafts. So it would be interesting to create crafts and tie them into the various classes Grim Dawn offers. In the case of multiplayer it would mean that people need to work together to create certain high end items.
Imagine a warrior becoming a smith. And eventually manages to create a flawless heroic sword. It is still just a sword made of a metal alloy. If he wants to enhance it he needs to find a mage to assist with it. Perfect for Multiplayer. In the case of singleplayer something like Torchlight 2 can be used. Have different artisans travel the lands. So you can motivate exploration to find them in order to turn that awesome sword with fire abilities or something else magical. It would even be cool to have a quest with some magical beast that uses his breath on the item in order to imbeu it with magical properties as a reward.
Things like D2’s runes and TQ’s charms/relics could be incorporated with a good craft system. A mundane means to add some minor magical enhancement to almost anything.
4. Recipes?
-I’d like to see that basic items could be taught by artisan tutors. You can learn to create a basic item on par with loot drops.
-Then you should be able to find recipes and such from humanoid opponents for some mild magic items on par with the loot at that point in the game.
-Some recipes can be gathered from discovering ancient location. Perhaps some secret techniques written on cave walls. Or textual descriptions in chest for items slightly above par with the loot drops.
-Some recipes should be gathered by mere experimentation. Not the kind where you put seemingly random items together and see what happens. But if you want to make a bow then experiment with different types of wood, hair of animals, magical strings etc. Then experiment with the quantities and Craft simulation variables to end up with some really powerful and awesome stuff.
5. Gathering
Well you can gather all kinds of stuff. Some storebought, some from salvaging what you find, some from simple drops. And perhaps a mechanic similar to hidden rooms in crypts. Where you just need to figure out, with some luck, that you can actually click that special tree or rock for some epic mats.
These are some of my preliminary thoughts. It would be awesome to create stuff. And then use it to destroy hordes of opponents with it
NEED armor dye! Please, one thing I despise about some of these loot games is looking like a frackin clown with pink legs, baby blue chest, golden helmet… please no. :eek:
Please add some type of armor dye.
Now how does it all sound? 
How does the armor and gear sound when it drops on the ground after an enemy dies? How does it sound when you click on it and place it in your inventory?
I don’t know if I’m the only one - but these things are at least as important to me as how they look!
Does this help?
Some very good ideas here, especially the part about players having different crafting specialities, but the crafting simulation part with all the layers and stuff seems a bit to complicated for the atmosphere of the game and the available resources. Fully functional forges are probably in short supply. Crafting needs to really fit the game. As you said, gathering is very important here and I think that would be the ideal thing for crafting to revolve around given the setting of the game. Maybe when you craft you don’t even make gear. Maybe you upgrade the gear to the next level, like stitching on a metal reinforcement to your chest, adding armor and giving an additional melee related affix. You could also patch your gear with runed cloth, giving you more energy and a additional spell casting affix. This might be able to be reflected visually on the armor if Crate uses common gear models which will already have increasing visual upgrades as crafted upgraded gear models. This may be redundant on components though. If time and resources permit, a combination based crafting system would be very fitting and cool. You know, when you take say three materials (possibly other gear) and click combine and hope for the best. Affixs and type of the gear or material change the resulting equipment. Higher quality crafting stations can determine the limit for how good stuff can get. Say you put together your current shoulders, some barbed wire, and some scrap heavy metal. You have no idea what you get until you get it, though you can familiarize yourself with what each thing does over time. It ends up heavy metal shoulders that have a slight damaging aura to melee attackers. It keeps most of the affixs of the original gear on the shoulders, as one piece of gear is required, and then decides additional affixs depending on the added armor type, be it metal, cloth, leather etc. Then the special material, in this case barbed wire, adds a effect such as a damaging aura to the gear. Better stations could allow you to add more armor types or special materials. What do others think of this?
This is very true and this is no discredit to game designers, but I sometimes hate what I am wearing, especially the color. I know that this really is meaningless in the overall scale of the game, but I truly appreciate having a dye system where I can change the color of a certain piece of armor.
I have often thought it would be neat to have a dye system that went beyond cosmetic. Such as each color is imbued with a power. I know that some games have attempted this, but I don’t think any has really captured it fully.
My 2 cents…
Feels like you contradict yourself to me.
If an item comes in a random color you don’t like, you could always equip a differently colored item instead. Problem is, you want the BEST item and then you are forced to use whatever color this happens to come in.
Being able to freely change color solves that problem.
But if colors are not purely cosmetical but have some bonuses attached to them, you run into the same problem again: You want the BEST color combination for your build, which might happen to be something you don’t like optically.
Such powers already come with components (the relics and charms from TQ). If GD allows us to use dyes on all armour parts (in TQ you can only dye your tunic), then it should not affect stats, too - would only result in power creep. I think GD has sufficient cogs to boost your power.
On the other hand, there has been the request [thread=3148]Relics and Charms changing the gear visually[/thread]. This again would most likely result in an overkill in effects. It might work, if you limit such effects to weapons, shields and chest armour. But there are already plans to attach the medal to the chest armour.
I feel dyes should only have the expected visual effect and components only improve your powers.
Next time try to use some paragraphs please. Makes reading a lot easier and less of a chore.
Crafting simulation can be made as shallow or layered as the game requires. Of course in a hack and slash game you’d want to have a more shallow version. You do not want to derive from the most important aspect of the game. Which is hacking and slashing while feeling overpowered and farming for loot. It is important that you can get in the action quickly and not be too side tracked with other things. The same reason you do not want to get interrupted by regular cut-scenes.
However taking part of the crafting process should be a deliberate choice made by the player. A choice with some consequences and proper rewards for those who invest time and effort into it. Instead of making everything accessible to everyone even though they make no effort. In the end loot is one of the most important aspects. So why not have at least a half decent crafting process instead of something simplistic and added as an after thought.
The last few days I’ve been playing Sleeping Dogs. Within that game the player was an active part of placing bugs. You had to unscrew the roster, place the bug, calibrate the bug. The same when it came to hacking camera’s and opening locks. It was a very, none time consuming, process. Something that got the player more involved then simply clicking once on the highlighted area and everything was done for you. And such a concept should be applied to crafting within games. Crafting just doesn’t get the attention it deserves. That is what bothers me the most.
With that all said. It is logical that you need to implement crafts in a way that fits what the game world. It needs to make sense. There won’t be many forges in Grim Dawn. However there should be a few smelting areas to melt scavenged metal. Mere crafting tables/stations won’t cut it even if they make up the majority of crafting areas. Old fashioned gunsmiths won’t be something you’ll find on every corner of the street. However they should still exist here and there.
I agree with eisprinzessin. Dyes shouldn’t affect stats depending on their color. That would force you in a certain direction.
e.g. I play a strength based character & I’d like to run around like a black power ranger. But black gives +Int and pink gives +Str. I’d sob.
Components are there to play around with stats.
About dyes affecting item visuals … some minor effects might be possible.
(srry for referring to D3) eg it would be cool if an Infernal Red Dye gave a sort of hellish radiance to an item.
But even if such effects would be added, they should be reserved for really rare, expensive dyes.
Changing looks of gear would take things too far imo.
These were actually meant to be two different ideas, not necessarily incorporated in the same game.
- Being able to dye your clothing for personal cosmetic choice
- Being able to dye your clothing to achieve different attributes
Thank you for catching that!
Such powers already come with components (the relics and charms from TQ). If GD allows us to use dyes on all armour parts (in TQ you can only dye your tunic), then it should not affect stats, too - would only result in power creep. I think GD has sufficient cogs to boost your power.
On the other hand, there has been the request Relics and Charms changing the gear visually. This again would most likely result in an overkill in effects. It might work, if you limit such effects to weapons, shields and chest armour. But there are already plans to attach the medal to the chest armour.
I feel dyes should only have the expected visual effect and components only improve your powers.
Sorry, my comments were not meant for direct feedback about GD but more as a general game idea.
I like the idea of being able to attach the medal the chest armor. This could add an extra element to the visuals without being overkill.
the green arrows for rotation and weapon swapping seem a little out of place, maybe a red, or a dark blue would fit the dark theme more.
EDIT: very good work though, kinda seems a little fallout -ish for a medieval time (or thats what i believe the setting is) but still very good
awesome looking gear…i love floppy hats like that in my games, like a indiana jones jack the ripper dude
Those pics looks great,good work kickstarter!But what class is this?I really love the level 30 armor.
Hey albertx,
I think you’re not so sure how classes work in GD; any class can wear any armor, provided they have the required stats, so you can gear your char any way you want, so that level 30 armor can be worn by a caster if the required stats are met, but it’s probably better suited for a soldier, etc.
Personally, I love the way the devs are doing this, just like Titan Quest! Good work Zantai!
Cheers,
Younghappy 
I believe even last year someone asked about female models. There’s still only male pictures. Did you forget the females??
Here, check this (date: 11-30-2012):
Thanks for the info!