Health buffs power creep inequality

[mad_lee]

Recent health buffs to Inquisitor’s Vigor and Necromancer’s Spectral Binding elevated a lot of builds. At the same a lot of classes that have been lacking on hp front previously fell even more behind. Here are some examples to illustrate my point:

1) Belgothians:

Blademaster is now firmly behind in terms of tank (and it was already behind in terms of damage). Here is a Blademaster I have made not so long ago: somewhat on a safe side, “of Vitality” on pants and no crazy greens. Solid farmer, but not elite. Here is an Infiltrator from our top20, made by @nofika4u, a much more versatile melee with some aoe flavor from Blade Spirits. Also has “of Vitality” on pants. And here is how they compare in the current test patch:

As you can see the advantage that Blademaster used to have in terms of armor and health is now gone. Moreover Infiltrator has now arguably better defenses with hp and physical resist advantage. (Reminder: Belgothian set has dual class support for Soldier and Nightblade and NONE for Inquisitor).

2) Demonslayers:

Buffed to an elite build status this test patch, those blade slinging Nightblades are back to the top of the food chain. Not all are equal tho. Here is how a Witch Hunter (made by @romanN1 ) and a Reaper (made by me) compare this test patch:

Notice how Witch Hunter has one more “of Vitality” item as well as more hp from suffixes and components. One could argue that Occultist provides ehp in a form of damage absorption from Possession but I would say it has roughly the same impact as Omen has. I would even argue that Omen is overall a more effective defensive deterrent than low level Possession as it also offers crowd control.

3) Misc.

Spellbinders, kings of old metas (like way back in the Ashes of Malmouth expansion), are claiming back the throne. Several buffs to Aether damage, Spellbinders items and skills made quite a few Spellbinders quickly climb back to the top of the food chain. Having Maiven on top of Ill Omen on top of high HP makes their effective HP very high and makes them extremely strong. Here are a couple of examples of top end Spellbinders: my Aether PRM and @banana_peel 's melee Spellbinder.:

Notice that both Spellbinders have some extra defensive/sustain mechanics that already made them extremely resilient before HP buffs, especially melee version (that has regen and like 3500 DA most of the time on top of everything else).

Some more examples of already strong builds getting stronger due to HP power creep:

My Warborn DK:

(I know that those numbers don’t even seem fair. And that build has a pretty cracking damage too)

My Aether Reaper::

doesn’t look that insane defensively but trust me it’s an absolute unit in game and one of the best melees (and builds) currently.

Conclusion

So all in all as much as I like buffs I have to say that this current HP power creep created more inequality than there was before. A lot of the hp starved archetypes like Warlocks, Sorcs, Pyromancers, Conjurers (some of them) etc. are still starving while others got catapulted to the top of the builds food chain.

I would say that some of that Vigor/Spectral Binding hp should go to one of the Occultist passives but idk if that’s possible at this point of the game.

Thoughts, ideas, examples?..

[Ceno]

@mad_lee

So all in all as much as I like buffs I have to say that this current HP power creep created more inequality than there was before.

I really don’t want to be in a 20k hp meta.

I miss the 4k hp pure-arcanists of old.

[banana_peel]

I think 20k hp is fine. Even 25k hp. Shifting sustain to raw hp is a good direction cause it promotes decision making in combat instead of relying on failsafe/leech tanks.

I’d suggest to roll back some of those crazy skill buffs and instead buff the hp gained from mastery meters and basic constellations.

[Ceno]

@banana_peel

I think 20k hp is fine. Even 25k hp. Shifting sustain to raw hp is a good direction cause it promotes decision making in combat instead of relying on failsafe/leech tanks.

I disagree almost entirely. Raw hp pools do not contribute to decision making in combat, they only contribute to a binary “do you pass the statwall check?” yes/no question in encounters. GD is already notorious for being able to more or less faceroll everything by pumping your build’s numbers high enough - raw hp would exacerbate that problem further.

Failsafe/leech tanks at least require you to be paying attention to the game state and being conscious about what you can and cannot handle with and without certain resources (cooldowns) being available.

[afanasenkov26]

I do feel like some of the latest HP/stats buffs were too much (especially Spectral Binding now giving 5060 HP at 22/12) thus making the gap between certain classes even bigger.

Pyro still struggles to get good health values. for lightning you get get sth like Vigorous Living Ring and a couple of Vitality affixes and maybe get close to 17k HP. for fire one you’ll most likely be happy with barely hitting 15k.

Spellbreaker is another class that sits around 15-16k at best, same goes for Warlock, Witch Hunter, sometimes - Conjurer, Blademaster and Witchblade (and some other I can’t remember) and certain classes I can’t speak of now.

generally speaking, builds with Occultist are often the most lacking in both HP and mana regen departments. For 50/50 mastery bar Occ gives only 1000 HP, second lowest number among all classes. Arcanist gives even less (900) but has a bunch of the best defensive tools in the game - absorb, cdr, null and mirror.

I’m definitely for shifting some HP from certain passives into mastery trees. And Occultist can definitely get some extra mana regen on top.

[eardianm]

@Ceno

Failsafe/leech tanks at least require you to be paying attention to the game state and being conscious about what you can and cannot handle with and without certain resources (cooldowns) being available.

Err, so does HP? I mean they all jumble into the same equation for eHP, so it’s not like trying to pull a single one out makes a ton of sense to begin with. HP buffer would only be a major issue on decision making if the pool is never at risk of going to 0 before you burn down everything around you. 20-25k HP with our current defensive layers bumping that eHP is probably too much. Regardless I don’t see adjusting these numbers suddenly turning Grim Dawn into a modern combat simulator vs it’s old school arpg roots, the enemy attack mechanics don’t support that kind of game play anyway.

[Ceno]

@eardianm

HP buffer would only be a major issue on decision making if the pool is never at risk of going to 0 before you burn down everything around you. 20-25k HP with our current defensive layers bumping that eHP is probably too much.

Do you not see how this is a preemptive binary evaluation, though?

Is eHP > expected damage taken? → Encounter is winnable
Else → Encounter is not winnable

With health recovery, be it regen, leech, or cough cough any other forms cough cough, at least the decision making has to happen in-moment rather than preemptively.

[eardianm]

Yeah, we’re all taking about the same thing. Banana isn’t looking for binary gameplay with HP buffer either, but I think it’d have to be some implied other defensive mechanics reduction so it’s not immortal tanks left and right.

I am indifferent, we have multiple modern arpgs now for more dynamic combat, I’m at peace with Grim Dawn being won 95% in the bedroom grimtools

[Shadowpast]

@Ceno

I disagree almost entirely. Raw hp pools do not contribute to decision making in combat, they only contribute to a binary “do you pass the statwall check?”

Ceno is right about this, IMO. This is what PoE2 is suffering from via the stack Energy Shield meta.

@Ceno

With health recovery, be it regen, leech, or cough cough any other forms cough cough

Other forms/methods of recovery would be appreciated.

Then again the extended health pools might be happening to help tackle the endgame content that’s coming, along with the phys res changes.

[Zantai]

Counterpoint: why does everything need to have the same amount of health?

[thepowerofmediocrity]

I don’t really like the title either, but I understand the points he’s trying to make:

1. Why is Belgothian set Blademaster - the set that it’s designed for - performing worse in every category than a mastery that doesn’t even support melee (yes, I know Aura of Conviction is a thing, but I meant the set is meant for auto-attacks with WPS and gives big advantages to Markovian’s Advantage; Blademaster should be the best in this category).

2. Occultist’s big claim to fame was having large Physical resistance thanks to Blood of Dreeg. Now that all forms of Physical Resistance are being gutted, what does Occultist have to provide any sort of defensive value for non-pet builds (or even offensive value if you’re not running things like Sigils or Doom Bolt)?

The other stuff just looks like Mad Lee bragging about how he’s solved the metagame or whatever… but what will other classes like Saboteur or anything related to Shaman (which has Brute Force to have big HP values, but only applies on 2H builds as opposed to Vigor or Spectral Binding which are universal and have easy to obtain bonuses)? I agree that fat bonuses should be hard to find and instead placed on builds that you have to coordinate to get those bonuses. For builds it’s just too easy to obtain both massive defenses and massive damage.

[mad_lee]

More replies than I expected!

@Zantai

Counterpoint: why does everything need to have the same amount of health?

It absolutely doesn’t. I just wanted to point out the most “unfair” examples of health disparity created by latest hp buffs. If you think that Necromancer’s “defensive theme” should be hp and Occultist’s - phys res and DA and absorb, sure. It’s just currently some archetypes that weren’t affected by this HP power creep cannot keep up.

@thepowerofmediocrity

Why is Belgothian set Blademaster - the set that it’s designed for - performing worse in every category than a mastery that doesn’t even support melee (yes, I know Aura of Conviction is a thing, but I meant the set is meant for auto-attacks with WPS and gives big advantages to Markovian’s Advantage; Blademaster should be the best in this category).

Exactly. Not only that but meta wise Belgo BM actually leveled up after recent global Pierce buffs and then after Markovian Stratagem medal got targets to MA wps (huge boost to Belgo BM). But then Infil is just ahead on most fronts still.

@thepowerofmediocrity

what does Occultist have to provide

Well certainly not energy regen.

@thepowerofmediocrity

offensive value if you’re not running things like Sigils or Doom Bolt

Doom Bolt is actually a bit outdated currently. However DEE is very strong and is now basically Occultist’s main export.

@thepowerofmediocrity

The other stuff just looks like Mad Lee bragging about how he’s solved the metagame or whatever

Well thank you! But most of the credit goes to Zantai’s and his buffs, I was literally doing almost nothing watching some of my strong builds becoming stronger just by virtue of power creep.

[Heapheaus]

Whatever happens please keep spellbreakers at 12k hp and just lower the cooldown of mirror so I can continue to say “skill issue.”

[banana_peel]

@Ceno

Do you not see how this is a preemptive binary evaluation, though?

Lower HP is exactly that. Ben can oneshot 18k hp in SR30 on his own, Alekx can too, Valdaran can burst down 20k in under human reaction time.

People often complain about HP powercreep in this game but as it is now, the gameplay is still exactly like you say, binary. Most defensive decisions are made in gt, before the combat, cause you need to prepare to withstand oneshots or dmg barrage with leechtank and then you go into the game, you facetank the world and sometimes you die in 0.3 sec.

Giving players more access to big HP pools makes it so that they would more often encounter situations where HP is not binary and face a choice of continue or retreat.

Of course, a lot has to be done to GD to achieve that (i would personally like more heal sources and removal of instant leech like PoE did). But if this route is chosen, big HP is the first step in that direction.

[Kurapika]

I find the health buffs for necromancer justified since they don’t have damage absorption, HP regeneraton. They depend on overall HP and attack hp for their survivability. In my experiences, I always died from not having enough mobs to attack while the debuffs continued to stack on my character.

In terms of pyromancer, I think not having HP buffs is okay considering that class is a high risk high reward

[Smitherson]

They literally have damage absorb from Mark of Torment and 2 sources of %reduced damage. The only supplemental defense skill they lack is fumble.

[uuujiiib]

@Zantai

Counterpoint: why does everything need to have the same amount of health?

I will respond to the stronger version of this question–which you have asked at several moments in the past during balance discussions: “Why does everything have to be the same?”

The answer is simple: because before SR, the game was explicitly balanced around wave 150 crucible, then wave 170 crucible; after SR the game became balanced less around wave 170 crucible and increasingly balanced around SR 75-76 (30-31).

When you explicitly balance the game around discrete difficulty points, where builds that clear those discrete points a few seconds too quickly are nerfed, and builds which clear them too slowly are buffed–or builds which lack defenses to clear them are buffed–you are overtly signaling to the playerbase that everything needs to be “the same” (or at least, builds need to have a certain amount of damage and defenses to clear the prescribed difficulty points you are explicitly balancing around).

Furthermore, there are simply not enough ways (axes of asymmetric balance) in this game that you can really avoid making “everything the same”: defensively you only have a few stats to work with. An example of the asymmetric balance I’m talking about, by the way, would be back when you had relatively glass spellbinders which used time dilation to cycle mirror and mark of torment. This was nerfed for obvious reasons; but in that situation it was not necessary to have 20k hp, 35 phys res and resist overcaps because there was another, strong way to build your character in order to find success in the game defensively.

I will avoid writing several thousand words about trends of Grim Dawn balance, however, and offer the following: I don’t pretend to understand what the point of these phys res changes are, or how they are improving the game. There was a movement to make this game less about facetanking and to make combat more dynamic–which I myself wholeheartedly supported. Maybe the phys res changes are in service to that goal…however it is clear to me now that the changes so far have not really progressed Grim Dawn much towards that goal yet. What I do know about the phys res changes is that one day there was an argument about phys res on vitality gloves (where a question that sounds quite a lot like “why does everything have to be the same?!” was asked) and the next day it was much more difficult for some builds to reach double digit phys resist.

A wise man once said “Fuck crucible and fuck it dictating game balance” and although I disagreed with him then, I have found myself increasingly thinking that attempting to balance the game around very discrete difficulties/difficulty levels has been a mistake (in lieu of more axes of asymmetric balance for different mastery combos to pursue).

To the topic: In a vacuum, HP is a stronger stat than physical resist because HP applies to all damage types. I am sure that our very scientifically minded designer has taken this into account in his rebalancing of physical resist and incoming monster physical damage, in order to avoid any breakpoints where the amount of HP given as “COMPENSATION” to losing physical resist causes the build to actually gain significant physical max hit defense, while also making the build much more tanky versus every other damage type.

@banana_peel

Of course, a lot has to be done to GD to achieve that (i would personally like more heal sources and removal of instant leech like PoE did). But if this route is chosen, big HP is the first step in that direction.

I think that removing instant leech from everything but vitality damage and keeping some instant leech (ala PoE’s instant leech mastery node) for melee/ranged AA builds was the way to go instead of this episode of physical damage rebalance but obviously the powers that be either disagreed or otherwise weren’t interested in that route.

[Ceno]

@uuujiiib

axes of asymmetric balance

This better be a pair of weapons in FoA.

[Jabarto]

@Ceno

I disagree almost entirely. Raw hp pools do not contribute to decision making in combat, they only contribute to a binary “do you pass the statwall check?” yes/no question in encounters. GD is already notorious for being able to more or less faceroll everything by pumping your build’s numbers high enough - raw hp would exacerbate that problem further.

Failsafe/leech tanks at least require you to be paying attention to the game state and being conscious about what you can and cannot handle with and without certain resources (cooldowns) being available.

I think this is trying to make the ARPG genre into something it’s not and probably shouldn’t be. I’m going to sound like an old man yelling at clouds here, but with the decline of the CRPG genre, most “ARPG’s” are just pure action games with an XP bar slapped on. Grim Dawn stands out precisely because it remembers that it’s an RPG and retains design philosophies like “not everything should have a skill floor”, and “engaging an in depth character creator is fun”. As long as you have decent balance among classes (which we largely do), there’s nothing wrong with a lot of the game’s strategy being encapsulated in your build/gear.

Incidentally leech is a really unhealthy mechanic because it lets you scale your defense directly with your damage output with no real drawbacks. There’s a reason it’s a top tier stat in every game that has it.

[uuujiiib]

Probably a better way to put it would have been “there are simply not enough axes of scaling resulting in better asymmetric balance in this game that…”.

The supercdr era of Grim Dawn was–for a select subset of builds (spellbinder, spellbreaker, sorc)–really the only example in Grim Dawn’s post-release history of a way to sufficiently scale your build’s defenses without needing to rely on traditional defensive stats (in particular phys res; but also armour, and to a certain extent hp). Indeed, for these builds, everything did not need to be the same.

In PoE (yes, I said it, take a shot) MoM builds, CI builds, aura/armour stacking builds, melee, etc. all scale very differently along very different axes, causing their spreadsheets to look very different–yet when push comes to shove, spreadsheets must be at least This Tall To Ride, and those build archtypes (when made properly) are all able to reach sufficient max hits and ehp for game content (but wont, for example, have anywhere near the same specific stats).

These things are largely powered by keystones. The devotion system was supposed to be GD’s answer to the PoE tree (and has been explicitly described as such in the past by the devs), yet omitted the most interesting part of it: keystones.

Without a greater degree of asymmetric balance in this game–which is hard to do because of the mastery class pairing system–no dev should be surprised when spreadsheets converge to being approximately the same while the game is balanced around specific, discrete difficulty levels.