I hate buffs and curses

[MagpieMcGraw]

The recent CoF changes in the test patch made me realize how much I don’t like a certain aspect of ARPG design: buffs and curses.

Curses would be things like Curse of Fraily, skills that you cast that reduce enemy stats.

Buffs would be things like Lethal Assault, skills that you cast that increase player stats.

Now what’s wrong with these two types of skills? Well they are boring. Using them is a chore, but one you have to do to keep your character functional. Every time you approach a new group of enemies, you have to curse them and buff yourself. Every 5 seconds you have to press those buttons that don’t do anything gameplay wise, and simply keep your stats in good condition relative to the enemies.

I like two button(move and attack) builds in Grim Dawn, and that is because there’s less busywork casting those chore skills. But more importantly, it really matters where you move and what you attack. Each time you click the mouse, you have to make the right decision. Makes for fun gameplay.

I don’t hate longer buffs like Pneumatic Burst. They’re always up, and they have a long duration, so they feel like a permanent aspect of my characters. They’re kinda like Battle Orders or Burst of Speed from D2. I will say, casting them is a pointless click, but I’ve adjusted. Although if I had more than 2 of these buffs, I’d start getting irritated.

Trigger buffs like Deadly Aim are okay by me because they don’t cost an extra click. There’s a nice rhythm to where they activate when you engage a group of enemies, you kill most of the enemies with your stats buffed, and by the time you meet the next group, your cooldown is up and your skill is ready to go again.

So to summarize: I’d like my button presses to be meaningful. Grim Dawn is pretty good when it comes to that, but could be better.

Some ideas how to fix this: add a transmuter to curses that auto casts them or makes them apply on attack. Auto casting buffs like Pneumatic Burst could also be considered. Also make RR devotions activate of all attacks. In fact, make lots of devotions activate of all attacks.

[Bas]

@MagpieMcGraw

Every 5 seconds you have to press those buttons that don’t do anything gameplay wise

Huh what? How do they not do anything gameplay wise? It’s very similar to attacking. Just doesn’t always do instant damage.

@MagpieMcGraw

I don’t hate longer buffs like Pneumatic Burst.

I do. This is useless button pressing for something that might as well be permanent. Sure these things usually heal, but if you don’t actively need that it feels rather useless to keep pressing it every x seconds. And if you forget or are late you’re effed.

[Deadboots]

I think devotions are fine as is. Needing a bind for each one promotes build diversity to a degree. If every build could use every devotion proc, all the time, I think we’d see a lot more builds going for the exact same devotion setups. Building for simplicity is a totally valid way to play. I think it’s possible with most class combinations currently. Personally I like having to manage a few different cooldowns, but no one is stopping you from setting up macros to live your 2 button dream.

[babo556]

The more you simplify the combat loop, the more you make different builds feel the same. Also every button press has an opportunity cost, which means the more buffs/debuffs you have, the more powerful your character is, but it comes at a downside of having to apply all those buffs before being able to use your main skill. If you were to automate everything the meta would shift to whatever build can utilize the most of these buffs/debuffs. Games like POE counter this by having limits to the amount of curses you can use and also limiting the amount of buffs the character can have active at the same time. I don’t think this would fit Grim Dawn

[Duck_King]

@MagpieMcGraw

Now what’s wrong with these two types of skills? Well they are boring. Using them is a chore, but one you have to do to keep your character functional. Every time you approach a new group of enemies, you have to curse them and buff yourself. Every 5 seconds you have to press those buttons that don’t do anything gameplay wise, and simply keep your stats in good condition relative to the enemies.

The counter argument to this is that gameplay becomes monotonous. In short it gets boring fast. These builds are great for farming though.

I disagree about your later statements about “it really matters where you move and what you attack” - I have no idea what you mean by that, how does it matter?
You literally point and click and occasionally move out of the way from deadly attacks “what else is there?”

Having said that some builds are more pianoesque and can be a chore to use. Prior to the changes to Wind Devil - Elementalists were a pain to use but having the Wind Devil’s be permanent was a great decision. Pyro’s unfortunately still suffer from this though as you need to drop Thermite Mines then cast CoF to get max resist reduction and then follow up with your main attack skill. I don’t see a solution to this though, it’s something that you just have to learn to live with.

There are skills in the game that I feel are designed poorly and that’s because late game, the mobs move quickly and die quickly and the entire screen fills up with procs making it difficult to target specific enemies. Mark of Torment and Storm Box for example need to be reworked. My suggestion in the past was to have them auto target the enemy with the highest HP as this would make both this skills more functional in late game battles. (I don’t know if this is even possible though with the current engine)

[Foehammer]

@MagpieMcGraw

I like two button(move and attack) builds in Grim Dawn, and that is because there’s less busywork casting those chore skills.

Ok, but you can’t expect game to be balanced around your personal prefs.

@MagpieMcGraw

Now what’s wrong with these two types of skills?

Nothing at all.

@MagpieMcGraw

But more importantly, it really matters where you move and what you attack.

As it does on button heavy builds? I’m sorry, I actually don’t understand the point you are trying to make here man.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

Box you want to overlap, so just having it auto targets highest hp enemy might not always be beneficial, let alone to dedicated box build

If MoT could tho, that would actually be kind of dope i think (going by numeric value and not % ofc )

[Duck_King]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

Box you want to overlap, so just having it auto targets highest hp enemy might not always be beneficial, let alone to dedicated box build

If MoT could tho, that would actually be kind of dope i think (going by numeric value and not % ofc )

Maybe have “Box” and “MoT” jump to the next enemy with the highest HP if the initial target dies within the duration.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

*not dies
you want to spread box around fast while the target is alive, so it can overlap
since it’s debuff it wont stack on itself directly, but the aoe and tether stacks, so applying box to whatever fatties available is the best (and not just the same 1/potentially same highest HP one)

**but this mechanic discuss is getting off topic

[_maverick]

@MagpieMcGraw

Although if I had more than 2 of these buffs, I’d start getting irritated.

I hate playing Nightblade, Inquisitor or Occultist combos because of having these two skills. It is extremally annoying… One is fine. Two are too many.

[Deadboots]

Oh man, I’d love some form of auto targeting (a toggle option might be best?) on Mark of Torment. It’s great for bosses but yeah it can be rough trying to pinpoint the right hero in a giant pack.