I’ve tried this build to see how very low cd on VF and CS fair. Had it long ago, didn’t expect anything groundbreaking. %dmg is fine now with buffed Pagar and shield being able to roll Chronomancer with cdr.
The build has literally no dmg, against melee targets or not. 4 minutes for single SR30.
Now, this would not surprise me in the past. But Agrivix Sorc has decent dmg and you can see the work VF is doing there. Same for CS, it obviously is capable of doing dmg, after all the top1 build of the last top20 is CS based, so it’s more about the numbers, i suppose.
Somehow in this build with such low cooldowns and ok bonuses, the skills are doing nothing. And I’m pretty tired of wasting time on both skills. Cause I just don’t understand how they behave, what attacks trigger them, what level of dmg do they need to have to even do smth.
Anyway. The shield is a waste of a database entry, the conduit as well, the skills are a mystery. I’m disappointed and defeated.
TL:DR: VF and CS are just the supportive skills. You can't make them work as an efficient (or even effective and only) main dmg source. Long answer:
VF and CS are “Only on melee hit” skills. And while VF’s base activation chance is 100%, CS’s is only 35% at max rank.
Chance of both skills activation progressively decreases with every DA pt invested (PTH). Chance of activating the skill by any enemy under any CC effect is 0%. CC in your build: mass knockback (Blitz, Ulzuin’s Wrath), mass freeze (Amatok’s Breathe), terrify (Hungering Void), mass stun (Attuned Lodestone).
Also, you’re trying to make a commando build with 85% RR using the full Ember set + Cadence, and the main problem here is that you’re expecting it to deal some competitive damage.
This is not true. If you run a retal build, VF is one of the few ways you can actually damage enemies that only do ranged attacks. I’m less sure about CS, but VF definitely also triggers on ranged attacks.
Edit: I was just testing it to double check and now I’m confused. It triggers, but the second node doesn’t on ranged attacks???
This is part of the problem for sure. I go into the forums and some decorated veteran user tells me incorrect information.
Nobody knows how anything works in this game, it seems sometimes.
CS and VF absolutely proc of ranged attacks, even some projectile spells but i don’t know what spells exactly.
UW only triggers from melee hits on you and at the same time works only against enemies outside of your melee range. The most obscure skill in the game for sure.
In the arpg world where knowledge is (IMO) synonymous with power…I am disappointed with the behind the scenes working of stuff that are different from their description or how it seems it/they would function.
/simpsons monkey of doom finger at “block”
Otherwise, +1 to the thread though.
Side note: PoE 1/2 are notorious for this. One of the many reasons I don’t particularly like those 2 games.
I don’t say anything about what triggers it btw. If it helps, I can add a word to clarify the phrase: “VF and CS are “useful Only on melee hit” skills”
as for CS, since VF has shown otherwise fine, mebe CS partial issue is activation chance vs dmg scaling? It doesn’t get as much dmg here because no retal, and perhaps its dmg (and subsequent activation chance) is based on rata in mind?
2nd node requires 2 enemies, one to get hit by the VF hit, and one to be at x distance, which is why VF doesn’t trigger on 1v1(either you’re too far to hit enemy with VF or enemy is too close to get hit by UW)
Not exactly. Despite the specific RtA CS build (I mean you, top1 warder) whose DPS of CS in theory can be over 200k, CS DPS of other retal builds is no more than 100k in fact. Maybe Sentinel set can have about 135k, but that’s not in this story of shortened CD.
Both Chaos CS Commando and Witchblade can have 240k DPS CS.
Partly. In v1.2.1.6, it was a 92% RtA per second skill, so its in theory DPS was around 215k. That was not a good carry but the Warder had not only one carry like it, so…
Anyway, it’s gone. Nerfed heavily.
I also had some chaos CS Commando and I’ve post it on my Youtube Channel for a long time. Its in theory DPS of CS is 240k. Shard Clearing is not bad. Boss solo is terrible. 45% activation chance means you have to be hit 13.4 times per second to deal that 240k dps out. In shard it is possible, but In boss room that’s gonna never happen.
One other thing is that if CS is the only thing you rely on, 240k DPS also seems not quite enough.
VF is 190k DPS, but VF builds definately have much better RR than CS builds so their DPS are similar after RR.
I’ve said many times. It needs more flat none-retal damage mods on the shield, and 100% activation chance mods on the conduit.
But I disagree with the shield being a waste of a database entry. Though low CD CS is not performing very good, it’s still fun. Plus the shield is the only decent one for fire SnB retal builds.
i wanted to make a separate thread for some time but this one might just do. i have a similar commando but with fire strike instead of cadence. my observation is that so long as there are groups of enemies attacking the damage is very much fine but thinned out groups and solo bosses are very slow.
so apart from what people already said my gripe is the crowd control in vindictive flame/ulzuin’s wrath (and when-hit constellations). i’m not so sure how much of the damage of an agrivix sorc truly comes from vindictive over callidor’s and the wisps and i do think stun & knockdown from vindictive/wrath impair counter-strike. the crowd control makes sense when these are support skills but when i use sets to make them my main damage source i kinda want that crowd control tuned down so enemies actually do hit my char. (and maybe we can get activation when-attacked since these builds naturally seem to get a lot of defensive ability.)
The Top 1 Warder has RTA modifiers to Savagery, Grasping Vines, Blitz, and multiple RATA devotions; the huge damage Counterstike is doing is from all the retaliation damage you have.
Both Vindictive Flame and Counterstrike use the template “OnHitActivation” which I assume is the same as devotions like Chariot - if you get hit, the attack goes off hitting any enemies within VF and CS’s range.
The 2nd node of VF - Ulzuin’s Wrath - has the template “Skill_ForkLightning” which agrees with GSAsylum’s observations: VF is triggered, then any enemies in the AoE get hit. Ulzuin’s Wrath says the Spark Gap is 10 and is constant among all skill levels; I assume that means an enemy has to be within 10m of the caster in order to get hit.
All that’s to say: to combine VF and CS, you may as well be trying to use a build with both EoR and FoI at the same time. They’re just incompatible with each other.
The point was that Commando doesn’t have the tools to make a VF + CS build work. Counterstrike works well with Warder because of how much retaliation synergy Shaman has. Vindictive Flame works well with Agrivix Sorcerer because Callidor’s Tempest is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Yes, Ulzuin’s Wrath has RATA associated with it, but that is much more useful in builds like Hellfire RATA Grenado.
Also, +1 to banana’s statement about the shield being inherently bad. There’s a large %weapon mod to CS, but 1H + Shield is really hard to get a decent amount of flat, so the mod is basically useless.
ah, so you are saying basically that those skills only work in specific settings (fat retal build with a big set for CS and basically a strong carry skill for VF).
Not entirely. The extra %WD helps get more of your leech through, which combines nicely with Ulzuin’s Wrath to give you a “zero input required” source of leech on both close and distant targets as a RatA build in particular. Retal Commandos aren’t exactly overendowed with skills to leech through otherwise.
I think it was the debuff attack. CoF for example.
Wrong. Both Commando and Witchblade have hundreds of physical/vitality flat damage that are easily converted to chaos. %Weapon damage part is the main part of its damage in non-retal CS builds in fact.
Let alone extra %WD helps with leech.
