We all know, thanks to the various “Top 20 (21) builds” thread what peak performance looks like in Grim Dawn (amazing work, btw).
But people often choose a starting point for a build based on what seems interesting or cool.
This means that a lot of people (I’m one of them) end up with good but mediocre builds, even if optimized, compared to the best one.
So, I’m curious to know what to expect from a build that isn’t even remotely at the top.
For example, there’s a thread saying that EoR is terrible. If I build around EoR and try to find the best possible setup, how many minutes will it take to complete SR 30/31? Is it possible to defeat Callagadra? And what about Ravager, which some builds kill in less than 1 minute?
EoR is just an example, there are a ton of items and sets that seems “average”.
When evaluating my own builds, I rarely go by timers. Even if a timer tells me X is 20 seconds faster than Y I have a hard time caring.
Plus even if I try a top 20 build that manages a ravager kill in 1 minute in other people’s videos, if I do it I take much longer. (Mostly because I do not have the nerves to keep fighting when health goes down too fast and play far more conservatively)
I evaluate instead whether the the build feels slow or fast. Whether it struggles against certain enemies or not. If I have time to think “Boy, this is taking a while” then the build is slow. If I’m continuously engaged in finding new enemies to kill, then it is fast.
If I have to pay attention all the time because my health goes down in seconds, the build is squishy. If I feel in control and do not struggle to take down everything in shattered realm 30+, it is tanky.
I deem a build “average” if it can accomplish all the tasks I set for it: easily beat Shattered realm 30-31, easily beat Lokar and Moggy and Bourbon clones, maybe beat Ravager or Calla in a few attempts. (Even if it takes 5 minutes without excessive kiting, that is fine.) I no longer really bother trying to fight Crate, that thing is just… a pain to even get to.
These are not exactly scientific measurements, but they determine whether or not I enjoy playing a build.
For me an average build should be capable of farming SR30/31 consistently without dying and/or within time limit. Game is generous enough to farm SR26/27 for you to do the next build.
I will leave superboss like ravager or calla to specific builds instead of considering killing them to be something that average build should achieve.
Right now I’m using a very similar metrics. My goal is to be able to do SR31/32 and at least Calla or Ravager, even if taking my time. But sometime I have the impression that I’m trying to achive something that the very design of items is preventing, especially when I’m playing HC
I think that this is a very good take, and actually honest way to measure performance.
“Fun” is the most important metric.
But sometime, when trying to “minn-maxing”, I struggle to understand if the build is performing under what I estimated due to mistakes by my part or simply because power level limitation.
And I have plenty of builds where I don’t really understand why they are performing better or worse than I expect, despite learning and applying all the various metrics in the game.
In those cases I tweak the build and see if that changes how the performance feels. Does adding another 5% lifesteal make a difference? Does increasing healthy by another couple K help? Maybe more DA would?
Usually I manage to get better results if I do this. Though part of it may be me learning to play the build better, too. And part of it may be me subconsciously adjusting my expectations. Still, if it works it works.
And conversely, I really enjoy playing builds I put together on a whim that somehow end up doing better than I expected, even if they are still objectively worse than some high-level meta build.
But admittedly, I never play hardcore. If I did, many of my builds would not even make it to level 100.
Gosh if anyone is doing SR 30/31 (I assume in Ultimate difficulty) then they have by definition done 6 Celestial level SR Shards. I would think that is beyond average considering 24 nemesis level boss room critters eliminated. Not to mention the ones encountered on the way to the boss rooms. Wouldn’t SR 26/27 be better end goal? That is 2 Celestial level SR Shards… Or is 30/31 just so much better for farming to justify the additional 4 shards?
How do you mean? With a waystone you can go to 30-31 immediately. So there’s no doing 6 shards, you only need to do 2.
Anyway, it’s not about farming, it’s about establishing a benchmark. I personally do not find 30-31 very hard now that I have a good stash of legendaries and understand how the game works. (solo-self-found etc would be a whole different story, of course.) Even meme-builds can do it pretty easily. So 26-27 would not make sense as a goal.
But a year ago I was struggling to just beat nemesis bosses in the campaign. I had to redesign a character 3 times just to get to Malmouth on ultimate difficulty, because Grava’thul kept spawning and killing her.
So it’s all about setting benchmarks that make sense for your playstyle and level of experience.
How exactly? If I have a new character with complete shared stash a Celestial Waystone will open Shard 26 for me. Period. In order to get to Shard 30 I have to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. Then that character is at 30 and can go there immediately with a Celestial Waystone. But until then for ANY GIVEN NEW CHARACTER the grind from 26 to 30 awaits. The only other option as far as I know is to use the next higher waystone to do at least one shard and then the Celestial would open 30 for you… But if you don’t have that higher Waystone you are stuck…
SR30/31 is the old SR75 before the squeeze, it also the last level offered that give rewards before using the death waystone SR80. So pretty good benchmark in my opinion to test the build.
Current SR26 is like SR65 back then which imo the best shard to farm for item/time/difficulty.
Use eternal waystone to bypass it, blueprint should drop as soon as 1 character finish the shard 32
Right. In order to get to Shard 30/31 with your Celestial Waystone you have to do Shard 32 with Eternal Waystone first and then Celestial will open 30 for you. Or you can grind 26 - 30. But until then Celestial is only good for 26. That is my point. And if you have an ‘average’ character maybe you don’t want to be mucking around with Shard 32. Just saying.
Well. Not exactly AFAIK. You must craft Eternal Waystone and COMPLETE Shard 32 before your Celestial will open Shard 30. Or does the mere fact of having an Eternal Waystone crafted and sitting in your inventory cause a Celestial Waystone to automatically open its last Shards if those Shards had never been previously completed by that character?
I wonder if you use an Eternal in Normal Difficulty and complete Shard 32 if that will allow Celestial in Ultimate Difficulty to skip directly to 30? That would be a viable alternative for sure to attempting Shard 32 in Ultimate for an ‘average’ character without having to do the 26 - 30 grind.
Well if I have new char or tweaking from old one and haven’t unlock that level to test, then I’m just go push with Eternal and start at Shard 32, or just go straight with Death Waystone if I got the feeling that the build can pass it even in death just to unlock all level below 38.
Still, as long as that level 30/31 is unlocked, then the build is retested and farming in SR30/31 regardless how high the shard it is capable of doing.
just to unlock all level below 38.