Is this game more or less balanced when it comes to skills and builds?

Well I played D2 and D3 extensively. Hated the latter because of poor itemization (left as soon my set wasn’t ‘‘high end’’ tier despite being built very nicely+main stat being more important than gear) Started D2 on Hell difficulty but never finished it for some other reasons. There were also other ARPGs, RPGs but can’t think of them all in moment. Idk as I’m getting older unbalanced gameplay throws me off so much. I played Witcher 3 and had to quit to find some mods because skills there are beyond broken. So that’s that.

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You? I see you have d4 sorceress as prof pic…:wink:

(Brief tangent on the PoE comment)

The idea that PoE only has a couple viable builds both is and isn’t true. To understand why people say that, you have to understand where they’re coming from. If you look at the spectrum of “class” (Ascendancy is the term) selections in the final days of the current league, you’ll see that two of the game’s nineteen possible “classes” (Ascendancies) make up 50% of all characters within this league:


This is indicative of strikingly poor overall balance (…and, maybe, a bit indicative of the game’s problem with botting, but there are no good measures of that available to players). In PoE, speed is king. The game is economy-centric, and builds that can contribute the most to that economy in the least span of time are inherently more favorable than others, and likewise will be more narrow in the scope of their design. However, if you are not interested in the game’s economy, things change considerably. Here’s the same “class” breakdown for the non-trading portion of the same league:


Slightly better balance, and indeed, all 19 of these “classes” can handle all content in the game (some easier than others) with perfect viability. If “can I kill X boss” is the only question you’re asking, PoE is alright when it comes to balance. If “can I kill X boss quickly” is the question, it’s a different story.


Rolling this back to Grim Dawn, there is no economy. There isn’t any more competition beyond that which the community has made for itself (Crucible/SR Speedrunning, the occasional community-driven PvP event or League, etc.). The only real question to be asked when it comes to builds in Grim Dawn is whether they can “clear X content” - where X may or may not have a speedrunning component to it. In lieu of this, hundreds - perhaps even thousands by now - of builds have been proven to be very viable.

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I played D3 a lot (on PS3, PS4 and PC) but not competitively / in multiplayer so balance / GR didn’t bother me (although it’s sucks when you play with a friend in local coop and suddenly you deal 10 times more damage than him/her because of stupid mechanics).

I also don’t remember games with broken skills making them too easy
(which I assume was the case for you with Witcher 3).

The way I enjoy games (more process oriented) doesn’t require them to be very well balanced I think.
I dislike the word “viable” when it limits the perspective on what builds can be made in an arpg.

There are plenty of viable skills and builds in both leveling phase and endgame. 100% balance between them is impossible to reach but I feel with game progressed, diversity increased dramatically. I still hope for some more changes inb4 final patch.

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@dragonlike To answer all your question; first you should need to know these concepts;

  • Shattered Realm : An area that scales endlessly. You kill 3 map of monsters then go to a boss room of that level, then next-repeat. There is a timer but if you consume it or die a lot; penalty is just less loot. Monsters and bosses in each level are mostly random but their strength is not. You decide to go on or get reward after every boss room. There are ideal farming levels and there are higher levels which is done only for glory, no loot.

  • Crucible : An area that you challenge with waves of monsters repeatedly. There are certain monsters in every waves. You decide to go on or get reward in every 10 waves. There is a max level which is 170. People do 130-150 for farming or 150-170 for build testing/glory. It also provides you certain buffs for a time so veteran players use rules like 3 buffs and 1 banner and depend on timing rather than if build finish it or not.
    Edit/PS: Crucible times/records are more dependent on player skills than other contents. When you see a good build with good crucible time, the credit might belong to the pilot more than the build. And that kind of piloting can be gained with practice and experience.

  • Main Campaign : It’s basically the acts and quests but after finishing ultimate main campaign, there are challenging farming areas. Totems helps beginners to get items/blueprints but there are also rogue-like dungeons and other secret quests. There are Nemesis creatures you can encounter after you reach certain degree with enemy factions.
    Edit/PS: So called ‘‘End-game content’’ actually starts within the ultimate main campaign since there are optional areas and bosses that you don’t have to do to be able to finish the questline/act-line.

  • We, veterans mostly do not care for normal/veteran and elite difficulty, we try to pass through them just for fast level-up and to reach ultimate because the only level that matter is ultimate. Finishing things in normal level doesn’t mean anything. Though for a beginner it’s all steps, so when you started you should take time and do all content slowly to learn the game. Learn the game, have fun with the campaing before considering end-game

  • So for most of us; ‘‘Useless builds’’(as you put it) are only the ones that can’t even finish ultimate main campaign, can’t deal ultimate rogue-like dungeouns nor any nemesis. And that’s caused by mostly wrong building. When you learn game mechanics well, any build can finish those. Ofc good builds can do blindfolded :slight_smile: So skill or class choice doesn’t matter much if you have the knowledge to build around them.

But to be more specific; I believe we can categorize builds in three section;

  • Low-tier builds. Those are mostly self-founded/unsynergized weird builds that can finish main campaign, and do rogue-likes with careful playing. They also can do SR and Crucible up to a level but not efficiently. Some beginner build are in this category but they consist only vendor gears.(There are also much better beginner builds) For example my first successful build was something like this. It could finish all content in campaign and do SR 50 or so, was a weird one I admit, then I re-specd it after I learned about the game more :slight_smile:

  • Mid-tier builds are one step further in end-game. For me it’s basically, being able to do farming range SR. Which is 65-66 or 75-76. Though there is a big power difference with 66 and 76 levels, 65-66 farming is more efficient because it’s faster and provides enough loot. So mid-tier builds can do 65-66 without having too much trouble. They also can do crucible with buffs and banner if you don’t care about timing but won’t be consistent enough. Main Campaign contents are not problematic for this kind of build. Some of these builds can also kill celestial bosses.(not all but don’t wanna spoil that part for you so won’t give you names that matters in build proving)

  • Top-tier builds; These builds can do Crucible with certain speed and atleast SR 75-76 with some consistency. Some do much higher SR levels, some do much faster in Crucible. Some veteran players care Crucible more than SR since it’s monsters are specific and there is not much randomness except the mutator debuffs in every wave. These builds also can do serious celestial bosses(but there are certain archetypes for those monsters depending on their damage type)

  • So there are also builds that can do SR 100+ and sub 4 min Crucible at the same time. They are kinda extra top-tier. They usually get nerfed by Z after a few patches. I guess they let us have fun with those for a while :stuck_out_tongue:

  • And ofc some playstyles are luckier than others in end-game. So as @Nery said, there is no such a thing %100 balanced game. Grim Dawn is not a game that you pick a build randomly and do everything as same as other builds. There are differences between builds, damage types, playstyles etc. But there is also huge diversity. When I created a character and level it to be 100; if my theorycrafted build was sucks I can easily change it to be something else. Most class combo have atleast 4-5 viable builds supported by sets and atleast 1 really good build option.

  • So; now you have some information about game difficulties; Build Compendium as @powbam linked before and check the builds from class by class, decide for yourself. And believe me, compendium has several builds for each class, but there are much more out there, unposted in forum or not sended for compendium.

Last PS: Having fun is much more important than completing the campaign or exploring the end-game content. So just give the game a shot, improvise at start, have fun and try to discover it’s unique features.

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This is my 2 cents. Grim Dawn is the most balanced and diverse ARPG in the history of ARPGs.

Aslo as many has pointed out, what does endgame actually mean? And it also comes down to how skiller player and theorycrafter you are, Grim Dawn does not play it self.

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Well, some veterans may see it that way. Others of us prefer not to rush through to what people call endgame because for us it’s playing through the game to end of Ultimate and that’s it; the “endgame” stuff doesn’t interest us.

Welcome to the forum dragonlike. A compendium is simply a collection of something; here it’s made up of mostly endgame builds, though there are some beginner builds in there as well. And then there are all these as well

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/tags/build-collection

some are beginner collections, others endgame, etc. It’s not that they’re not as good as the ones in the compendium, simply that the creators didn’t decide to provide the info that Stupid_Dragon requires for inclusion in the compendium.

You might want to peruse the Game Guide to give you more of an idea of how the game works.

https://www.grimdawn.com/guide/

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Believe me, I spent time much more in main campaign than SR or Crucible. And I don’t use the speed leveling that you reach 100 within 10 hours. I take my time, I usually have revered all factions and nemesis status all enemy faction when I finished elite. I do level as not the efficient way but the way my character gonna be. Like if I’m gonna make a melee demolitionist, I don’t level with Blackwater Coctail as most people do, I level as melee just from the start. I do start with veteran because I like it better but normal is faster. I do finish all content in atleast veteran or elite before jump into Ultimate so I usually just skip one difficulty. But while mentioning veterans as ‘‘We’’ not ‘‘I’’; I clearly meant to be generalize things for a new member who asks about end-game balance in the game so I can explain him that end-game starts within the ultimate main campaign not after that.

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I also sometimes just wanna “enjoy the ride” and not do the most efficient method, just look at my SSF build guides :stuck_out_tongue: Leveling with aegis, drain essence and 2H melee cadence :sweat_smile:

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I have played alot of d3, poe, etc and this game has the most diversity of any of them. The sheer number of builds that can complete endgame tasks like cr 170 and sr 75 is nutty. If you want to play with one hand some very goods builds are available. There are also good piano builds out there as well. I am an altoholic and finding random monster infrequents in this game causes me to reroll often. It is honestly lots of fun!

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Your milage may vary, but it’s somehow in between. It partly depends on which two masteries you combine and what damage type(s) you settle for. But there are skills, which you usually want from each mastery, and only neglect, if your understanding of the mechanics is incomplete. I am referring to auras and utility skills - you have more liberties with your attack skills.

It’s not like the game becomes unplayable, but you would be gimping yourself. That can be fun to an extent, but only until you come to the conclusion that the balance is off…

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Thank you for useful information and your time. It helps because I think on grabbing poe too sometime in future.

Thank you for your time to write this detailed answer. Like you said fun is important. But fun also comes from well balanced game for me. Glad that’s the case here. I’ll check out compendium but I’m more of solo theorycrafter so that’s the road I’m going. Any endgame that gd offers is a plus for me.

I took a little sneak peek. :wink:

Interesting… But wouldn’t that again belong in OP skills? I mean if you automatically have advantage over another character with same item setup but different skills? I’d really like to hear other players observations about this too.

What is meant is that some skills you kinda “need” to use. Like you need to use an exclusive skill, you need skills that gives you free resistances, skills that reduces enemy resistances, etc. Otherwise you will just be gimping yourself.

A balanced game does not mean that you can use any skills etc and expect similar performance, you still have to think and know about the game mechanics in order to make good and viable builds. Within these parameters, and given how many skills, items, devotions and mastery combinations this games has, there are a lot of builds you can do that are endgame viable.

Leveling wise, some skills are of course OP, early game leveling in ARPGs is always gonna favor movespeed and AoE damage. Nevertheless, it is of course very much possible to level as a single target damage dealer.

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Oh, I think I understand better what you’re saying but only because I spent some time on grimtools. Kinda like you can play knight without shield but that’s not how it goes comparison, right?
Regarding second point, yes, I didn’t think you should expect similar performance between any of them but some middle ground must be set otherwise you’ll end up with useless skill.
Take necromancer ‘‘teeth’’ from d2, while they were ‘‘viable’’ in bone builds (it’s been awhile so don’t hold me for it) they could never compete with spells like bone spirit/spear. IIRC, d2 had a lot of early skills like this.

Respeccing of skills are easy in Grim Dawn btw.