Lack of Retaliation for Expansion

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

One thing I’ve noticed is that there is a lack of retaliation love in the expansion masteries/devotions to the point where there are zero instances of retaliation damage sources/buffs in either of the two new masteries or any of the new devotions.

A retaliation character isn’t really the best way to go as it is simply because caster/ranged enemies (especially bosses) are an absolute nightmare, so it’s already pretty gimped. However, I really enjoy playing my retaliation Warder, mostly in multiplayer as a tank with multiple taunts to enable the DPS to just melt the mobs. Regardless, I find it odd that there are literally zero new sources of retaliation damage/buffs–not even a single star or afterthought on a buff.

Granted, I’m sure there might be some new items that show some love to retaliation, but it seems like the devs forgot to add this particular damage type to their checklist when making the new content.

Here are some places that retaliation damage might fit in well:

Inquisitor: Inquisitor Seal (inside the seal would be a perfect place for some retaliation flat damage and/or buffage) or Word of Renewal (a la Emboldening Presence for Shaman or Temper for Demolitionist).

Necromancer: Pet retaliation on Call of the Grave, Master of Death, Soul Harvest, etc. or anywhere on Blight Fiend considering its taunt abilities (even the Occultist’s Hellhound has some retaliation damage, but not this monster?). Player retaliation on Siphon Souls (maybe during the duration enemies damage taken by retaliation is increased. Not sure if that’s doable with the engine), Soul Harvest duration-based retaliation flat damage and/or buff, Mark of Torment to include a huge flat retaliation due to its low uptime/cooldown ratio, or Spectral Binding (although this one might be confusing since it already includes an “on hit” aspect that isn’t retaliation).

There are already acid, pierce, and lightning based retaliation builds. Having an elemental retaliation Inquisitor or vitality retaliation Necromancer added to the mix would be pretty groovy. Based on the Necro’s theme of ADCTH and punishing enemies that hit it, I would really like to play a vitality retaliation Death Knight.

Edit: Now that I think about it, we haven’t seen all the new items yet either. With the introduction of adding new item skill modifiers to certain items, it didn’t occur to me that there might already be some Necromancer/Soldier set that adds “10000 Vitality Retaliation to Mark of Torment,” “+500% Vitality Retaliation Damage to Harbinger of Souls,” and “+300% All Retaliation Damage to Soul Harvest” or something similar… although it would still be nice to have at least a few constellations with some fresh retaliation love (I mean, that Stone Matron would be a perfect place for some physical type/all retaliation, Attak Seru or Quill could add some elemental retaliation, and Typhos could add some vitality/all retaliation)

2

I’m more surprised about the lack of shield support. Only Vire has a node, and it seems more like an afterthought than anything. I was pretty convinced that there would be at least a couple of skills with transmuters which require a shield, just like the transmuters which require 2-handed weapons. It’s pretty lame having to pick soldier every time you want to efficiently use a shield; no other weapon type is so obviously limited to one class.

3

That’s a solid point which didn’t occur to me. However, there is a legendary shield which allows Devastation to be cast with it equipped, so I’m willing to bet that there will be some shield love added as item skill modifiers at the very least. I know one growing concern with some theorycrafters was the lack of shield casters, which they addressed with at least one item. Although that doesn’t change the fact that there aren’t any mastery or constellations to support it other than the single node on Vire you mentioned.

Luckily there is some time before release during which things like retaliation and shield love might change or get added, and I’m sure Crate will be doing some balancing even after release as well, so I’ll stay hopeful.

4

It’d be interesting to add more retaliation to the new masteries, but devotions are especially ripe for new retaliation bonuses. Despite the huge new constellation map, there are only 8 devotions with any retaliation bonuses (excluding pet, CC, or life leech, which will be removed in xpac). Thus, there are tons of opportunities to add new retaliation bonuses:[ul]
[li]Fire retaliation would be a great fit for Phoenix[/li]
[li]IT on Vire[/li]
[li]Vitality on Typhos[/li]
[li]Bleed on Stag[/li]
[li]Chaos on Wretch, etc.[/ul][/li]Retaliation builds function most effectively as hybrids. Since devotions are mastery-agnostic, new retaliation devotion bonuses would provide players the freedom to come up with new ways to build around different sources of retaliation, especially in finding retaliation sources that best fit their build’s RR profile. Right now, the vast majority of retaliation damage sources are pierce, lightning, and acid, and there’s no reason why this needs to continue to be the case.

Strongly disagree. For example, if you give new shield skills to Inquisitor, the primary beneficiaries are going to be Tacticians, period, who will simply stack them with existing soldier skills.

The problem is that shield casters already dominate the current meta (alongside broken CDR coldbreakers, especially with Soulrend). See See Drizzto’s Gladiator builds for tons of examples: BWC, totem, DEE, other DOT builds, etc. If you want to grant new shield skills/xmuters to other classes, you’d need to nerf existing soldier shield skills to prevent OP stacking combinations.

If anything, there needs to be new skill transmuters that reward players for using caster off-hands instead of shields, because:[ul]
[li]Non-arcanist casters pay a huge health/DA penalty for investing in spirit to equip offhands, and this problem will only be exacerbated with increased spirit requirements in xpac.[/li]
[li]Even without any soldier skills, shields grant free defensive bonuses, whereas the CDR bonus of offhands doesn’t improve DPS for most shield caster builds (such as DOT builds). Hence, using shield instead of off-hand provides free defense with no offensive drawbacks.[/li][*]Shield builds are already capable of some of the fastest clear times in Gladiator - far faster compared to “offensive” caster builds like AAR or TSS builds, and they’re obviously far more survivable to boot. Shield builds need absolutely zero help in xpac given all boosts already being provided to their offensive skills (such as DEE shield casters getting a massive boost from Murmur).[/ul]

5

[/li]
This sounds like a problem with how strong DoTs are currently, and if DoT builds were brought into line, people would have more reason to equip offhands as well for the cast speed and other bonuses. I just don’t want shield builds to be limited for what is essentially a DoT problem, and I definitely think that players need to be given more incentive to equip offhands, but I don’t think that limiting shields is the way to do this. Shield transmuters don’t necessarily need to be defensive either, I’m just looking for some class variety in item selection

For example, let’s consider Inquisitor again. A transmuter on Inquisitor Seal which gives attack speed if you’re using a shield in the AoE would not make DoT builds any more powerful while still opening up shield support options in other classes.

6

[/li]
+1 to all this.

You didn’t even mentioned that some of the strongest shields has some CDR too beating off-hands further into the ground.

Oh and a certain spoiled MI shield

with innate cdr combined with a right prefix would have MORE cdr than an off-hand.

7

With the updated gear retaliation is quite fine i’d say.

As for Devotions I think Menhir got some extra retaliation.

8

I’m definitely excited to see some new retaliation gear and item skill modifiers.