I’ve done some early leveling testing using some of the less meta leveling skills, such as Righteous Fervor, which has reminded me of the leveling imbalance between popular skills like Forcewave or Blackwater Cocktail and default attack replacers.
DAR focused builds tend to (eventually) get enough AoE from skill modifiers that grant them additional targets/arcs and from different WPS procs. However, before you are able to progress far enough to farm and/or equip your MI’s and put enough points into WPS to make them proc consistently, trying to use these skills feels miserable.
I know you can use other, more efficient skills instead, but I don’t personally like how this limits the early game leveling options. I could also see this as being a bit too much of a noob-trap, when a lot of the DAR’s are among the first skills you unlock after choosing your class.
I was wondering, if it would be possible to grant default attack replacers something like innate attack arcs that would allow them to do at least some aoe earlier in the game? You could for example give RF a 90deg arc with 3 maximum targets (or whatever numbers would seem reasonable), but still allow you to further scale these stats via items, that could also be toned down to keep the end game AoE similar. You could also have the innate max targets be tied to base skill point investment or something.
I don’t need auto attacks like RF to be the new leveling meta or anything, just don’t want to feel like an idiot for not using forcewave (or starting oathkeeper…).
DAR are pretty much what i use for most my builds. i found maxing one of the Pool Skills right off seems to help a lot. either that or whatever wielding or buff skill i’m getting that time. the DAR skills first tier tend to only do one target at a time. but maxed you can still peel through targets at a decent clip.
i’ve been experimenting with placing two points in the Mastery every level. placing less focus on the skills and more on getting the trees maxed. that’s been working really well. but i haven’t mixed that much with DAR yet. but it’s upped my survivability and damage massively in the early levels
also going straight for a Devotion Skill helps too. it takes a bit to do that though
I’ve also had a terrible time trying to level with savagery (2h), but I’m not sure if that’s savagery’s fault or if I was 2h that was the issue. Getting WPS does help a lot.
Yes, pumping WPS definitely helps out but at the same time it’s kind of point intensive as you’re “only” getting a ~1% chance to proc every point.
For example on my RF test run smite was carrying pretty hard, though it is still quite rng proc heavy early on if you’re only relying on a single proc. On classes/combinations with multiple early WPS I’m sure this feels a lot better.
Speaking of the RF run, I tried going straight to FG to farm the Korvan Halberds for RF + smite, and that was quite the experience without a good leveling skill xdd. Early MI farming can be a real pain, especially when your build is suboptimal
One thing I’ve also noted is that pure physical skills seem a lot worse early on, so that might part of it (though you do get a bunch of flat lightnign as shaman).
It seems like the early armour scaling on some enemies is maybe a bit too much. For example, purely elemental cadence (via maxxing the transmuter) seems to get a lot better killtimes against some of the early heros such as Milton Hart, Farros etc. compared to the pure physical version (with similar tooltip dps).
Upheaval feels really nice early on now with the changes at least.
that is why maxing one helps. just whatever skill does AOE or adds a ton of damage you’ll be wanting later. i don’t like to respec. i consider it a failure if i respec any points in a Mastery. even if it means a slower early game. and i found maxing just one skill. if it’s the right one speeds up the early game drastically. also taking quests out of order help too. i’ve taken to just straight up skipping the Hill quest line and going straight for all the stuff before Burwitch. then going back for the Hill quest line. also, the very first area exiting the starter town is full of Rares of differing types. it helps to grab whichever works the best for that character too
lots of times i can only pick off one enemy at a time. but by level 6 or so i do enough damage to do it at speed. the only place where i ever ran in to problems with that was the Hill or the dungeon next on that list. skipping them till later helps out a lot with my run speed of the first Act
I haven’t tried every DAR build, but I think they’re fine. If you max Savagery and Brute Force, you get some great early game DPS. Same of RF and Safeguard.
Focusing on WPS is also viable for the early game. You can start Inquisitor with Bursting Round, or Soldier with Zolhan’s Technique. This path is not as easy as the typical leveling builds, but it’s playable for sure.
I think adding some +targets +arc after certain thresholds, e.g. 8/16/24 points to FS/RF/Savagery/Onslaught while removing some from item skill mods would go a long way when it comes to making these skills feel better for leveling while keeping their power roughly the same endgame.
how does it keep the power roughly the same @_@ - there aren’t a whole lot of items with +targets to the DAR itself but individual wps, because certain wps got a bit crazy with +targets
I don’t think i’ll end up caring much either way, game is powertrippy already, only gripe i’ll have is probably the sense of everything once more being cemented into being the same, and the game “confirming” its design mistake that everything is about AoE, aoe, and moar aoe
Tho i’d say i don’t quite understand the reluctance to use the tools available (eg slam component etc) if feeling like more AoE is necessary early game
*that’s not me saying there isn’t a big difference in aoe vs 0 aoe, just that it’s available already without fundamental base changes to dar builds, also even of using ex fireblast seems ridiculous on weapon attacker there is melee/weapon aoe comps
(also i “famously” dislike the whole just use fireblast approach and still dont’ understand why it got buffed, further highlighting the aoe disparity )
You could take away some of the power from said items and transfer it into the tree instead, though I really doubt giving auto attackers a couple more max targets would break the game.
I would say that in the end game single target dmg is overall more important compared to aoe, because you kinda only farm heroes and bosses past some point.
In early game, especially early act1 though, having some AoE makes a huge difference compared to having effectively none.
I have to admit, I totally forgot that component has an AoE skill don’t remember the last time I’ve used that. But regardless, I’d want the very baseline of a skill to at least feel ok to play early, which imo it does not atm.
i think that got misunderstood
when you add targets+arc to the base DAR, it transfers to wps,
there aren’t many items with +targets/arc to the DAR itself, (the few that are on stuff either excluding the trouble wps or making them more meme with dmg types/conversion), so mostly +targets are always direct to wps, while still being a build concession/slot cost.
If you bake that in, it all goes, away, there wont be a restriction on upheaval/smash/aqc/execution etc that normally don’t get extra hits, builds that took certain items purely to get wps aoe(not talking dar +targets) now can skip those and take whatever is even better/stronger dmg wise.
Hence the “how can power stay the same”, when it’s actually that big of a difference - only speculation i could have is melee wps builds “struggle” even more in FoA endgame so Protoss has some carryover thought to that. Because in current game just slapping +targets inherent on DARs would def be a powerspike for melee wps builds.
*it’s relevant to endgame because the game being aoe centric as it has become, means we’re multi tanking bosses and Nemesis now, not just champs/heroes, so single target dmg directly carries over to that with +targets in DAR
For levelling it will only be a difference that every melee feels same/like blade arc/ring of steel or whatever "this is my circle, you shouldn’t stand here"attack
i mean, that depends on your definition of “good”
my gripe is that “efficient” doesn’t always equate to fun, and to me spam FW is one of the most boring levelling skills, even if it’s technically strong (also why did it get buffed now? )
but often in these games the recommendation is X because some players/newcomers just prefer ease or power, likewise with “just level as pet build”
(ironically there was just a “i uninstalled” complaint, because someone thought spam FW sucked dmg wise, while Cadence was better dmg levelling )
Yes, I see your point, sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
Yes, I am talking about this in the context of FoA and whatever new content we’ll have. The base game does have quite a bit of powercreep to it already, though I don’t think auto attack builds are in general really on top of the curve here, nor would they be comparatively.
While I do agree that skills should feel different and have their identities ( I was an old upheaval enjoyer ), I do not think that having certain skills feel worse to play (subjective to a degree of course) is really a good way to achieve that. Default attack skills will always have the inherent additional jank of having to connect hits with the enemy anyways.
I really hate this sort of stale leveling meta as well. It’s really the main reason I’m bringing this up in the first place.
Likely some skill issue involved with that forcewave complaing , though based on my recent runs I do agree that spam FW does do very low single target dps if you rush straight into the transmuter with something like Hevill’s Greatsword etc.
i also forgot that i found picking the fights works wonders too. i mostly ignore the cannon fodder anymore. once they’re barely denting my experience bar. if there is a large compact group i’ll fight them. even when i can only pick off one at a time it goes fairly fast. it felt like a slog if i tried to 100% the body count all the time. even when i’m killing stuff nearly as soon as it comes on screen the slow down to make sure i get everything just isn’t something i feel a need for
i found skipping to much is about as bad. Act 2 slaughters me when i do that. even just picking off the champions and seems to be enough. making sure to proc every monsters shrine. also i never found myself missing out on much ignoring Cannon Fodder. i get next to nothing for killing them and waste time that could be spent finding and killing higher tier mobs. the ones that actually have the awesome drops
a lot of it just comes down with how i run Normal. the more optimal strategies will more then make up for the holes in the build that will be filled in as i level
seems placing two points in the Master for every level helps a lot too. except for maxing that first skill first. then i move to putting points into the master. until it is where it i want it to be
This is extremely wrong. Every boss these days summons 5 minions per second. Melee WPS are falling behind on AOE in the endgame. What good is 5 targets when there’s 50 enemies on the screen?
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don’t remember the last time I’ve used that. But regardless, I’d want the very baseline of a skill to at least feel ok to play early, which imo it does not atm.
- only speculation i could have is melee wps builds “struggle” even more in FoA endgame so Protoss has some carryover thought to that. Because in current game just slapping +targets inherent on DARs would def be a powerspike for melee wps builds.