Limits of a Glass Cannon?

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
1

So… Torchlight II, Path of Exile and Grim Dawn are all fun and each have their good and bad points, but they all seem to “punish” glass cannon builds a bit too much, resulting in very few viable(not OverPowered) build options.

To make matters worse, most glass cannon chars will find out they lack defenses when they arrive at ultimate modes.

It seems that defensive stats are much stronger than offensive ones, giving you only the option of being tanky or not so tanky, anything else is certain death…

Genuine questions:

Would it be good for diversity/balance if we didn’t have to worry THAT much about defences?

Would it be fair to ask that, for the sake of diversity, a character that only invest, say, 1/4 of what a tanky build dedicates to its defenses be able to solo all content on HC with some decent player skill?

It would probably mean the need for more movement/defense skills that reward player reflexes, but those seem a bit scarce in GD too…

2

I am no fan of basing this on player skill rather than char skills in an (A)RPG, that is what action games are for.

If you want to neglect defense and go all out offense (and yes, going 1/4th of what a tank needs is the same as ignoring…) and do so as a HC char, you deserve to die. If this were possible, then why have defenses at all ?
That a glass cannon lacks defenses is pretty much its definition, to me there is no argument that says a HC char needs to be able to be one.

As to the importance of defenses, they already are a lot less important than they used to be, whether this is the right balance or whether they should be more or less important has no definitive answer. I would not mind if they were somewhat less important still.

3

I’m not talking about basing everything on player skill. Ofc it would be ideal for glass cannons to rely on skills that rewards timing for it to be balanced. Tanks would still be much more about number crunching than skill and less tanky builds would be a mix between skill and gear. That way you would really have a difference in playstyle other than which stat you need to focus on.

“and do so as a HC char, you deserve to die.”

That’s seems a bit unfair, 1/4th of a tank build is not so low since tanks have a lot of defense. It should allow Glass Cannons to not be 1 shot by bosses unless they get hit by their “stronk!” attacks wich would be cool to have some reactive skills to try and block these based on player reflex.

It still would be an extreme accomplishment for one to finish all HC content with a viable but not OP build like this.

“If this were possible, then why have defenses at all ?”

To allow for players that aren’t used to fast paced skills to finish HC with more number crunching builds. Maybe tanks shouldn’t be that tanky but at the same time mobs shoudln’t do so much damage?

I honestly don’t know the answer for that…

I’m the kind of guy that likes to play and experiment with all classes, I’m not aversed to bow, magic or sword, tanky or not, mobile or not. But it seems that everytime I want to make a more offensive char, something that rewards good reflexes, positioning and awareness I end up realizing there is a scarcity of strong active defensive skills(most of them is press to get +def stats for ~10s), and that most of them would die in HC. So I must gear quite defensively since GD sometimes throws you into closed spaces with lots of very tanky, hard hitting monsters.

Maybe the gap between what a defensive build and an offensive one can take for damage shouldn’t be that large. Since some tanky builds do a lot of damage anyways, why dmg builds shouldn’t be able to “tank” a bit more?

4

Kind of telling that you couldn’t even manage to type out the word “offense” even when talking about a glass cannon build in concept, isn’t it?

Lemme spin your question around on you: If having X defenses at Y levels is absolutely mandatory to survive, why have those defenses be optional at all? Because to me, that screams of “I need my game to have trap options so I can lord my game mastery over the newer players” and that’s just bad game design. If a thing is presented as a viable option, then it shouldbe a viable option. Saying e.g. “well you can have lower than capped elemental resists but just about everything will kill you on sight” then it’s not an option to have uncapped elemental resists, is it? And if every single character in the game needs to cap those to get through the game, maybe the game’s enemies needs its math reworked - either reducing the fire/cold/elec damage done across the board, or just giving characters a base amount of resist.

It boils down to this: for most people, the fun is in active abilities. The number of people who ooh and ahh at how small their incoming damage numbers are is way lower than the number of people who like to make big numbers happen to enemies in great volume. Grim Dawn is a great game but it’s greatest and most pernicious failing is the immense overemphasis on building defenses.

5

Color me confused. :confused:

Seems you’re forgetting not only the Action part of an ARPG, but also the Role-Playing part of an ARPG as well. Perhaps you want to roleplay as the typical rogue style character - of which the Nightblade fits perfectly. Does such a character truly ‘deserve to die’ as you say?

I guess you’re mostly interested in the ‘Game’ part of Grim Dawn.

6

Agree.

And it’s not even a case of being a casual player…

Sometimes I just want to play an offensive more risky character, let’s say, 40% on most resists, Defensive “Oh Shit” skill or something that allows me to mitigate big hits if I time the skill correctly and rest in offense(40% might as well be 0% in later parts of the game).

IMO the main thing that breaks the balance is the tank concept in ARPG…
ARPG’s are made so you kill lots of mobs constantly and a tank is the opposite of that. Of course, this makes tanks extremely boring so they allow for some ways of making tanks do damage too. That in turn makes tanky dmg builds too powerful so they UP mob damage to counterbalance it. Which then turns into a nighmare for glass cannons.

I think tanks should be viable mostly for parties only where they can rely on others for the raw damage dealing, so that you ACTUALLY have to trade DPS for survivabilty.

For solo players it woud be ideal to play as heavy offensive char or a mix of defense + offense(off-tanks), but not as pure tanks(Dps too low).

7

Exactly…

“Melee, high damage, and average resists?”

Forget Harcore mode :smiley:

8

I disagree.

  1. It’s easy to get resistances with a bit of farming… components and augments helps a lot and reduce the curve of how hard it is in between difficulties. It’s much easier than Titan Quest to get resistances.

  2. The game gives you way too many ways to get defense.
    In fact you have : DA, health, armor and physical resist, armor absoption,
    health regen, resistances and + to cap resist, life steal, damage absorption, reduce ennemy damage, shields…

All in all, the game can’t tell you exatly what you need, but experienced players in aRPG know how important resistances are, same goes for armor.
I mean the difference in between 40% and 80 % resistance is 3x the damage taken and the difference in between 60% and 80% is 2x the damage taken.

A strong feature of Grim Dawn is theory crafting, and sometimes what you have planned isn’t working well by not having enough defense and you need to adjust skills/devotion/gear. Over time you get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn’t.

As for glass canon, depends what you mean exactly. If you wanna kill bosses/Nemesis under 10 sec then there aren’t many that can do it (SS cold spellbreaker oriented toward offense)… if you aim more for ±30 sec then you have many builds. Also, most the time glass canon builds barely kill pack of monster faster, depending on ennemy type… where they shine the most is boss killing speed.

9

I always had the opinion that ARPG’s resistance caps were simply too high…

As for Glass Cannons I think they lack active mobility and instant shield skills(the kind that you press at the right time to absorb a heavy blow).
Glass Cannon defenses should be more about timing/dodging than stat checks.

Imagine a skill for Nightblade for example, that would absorb more damage the LESS it remains active, so if you pop this too early to avoid a blow, it will still damage you considerably AND put the skill on CD.

10

What always nags me when I think about diversity is that a truly good build in GD has to invest almost every point into physique. Also considering phys requirements on heavy armor.

I recently introduced some friends to GD and when I told them to at least invest 50% of their points into phys, possible more for a sold first character they rebelled and almost didn’t want to play anymore, saying how is that good game design.

I guess people will come running and say:" Hey I completed ultimate with 0 physique." But nobody can deny that going full phys is considered the best by the majority of the community.

11

I think being able to be extremely tanky and deal a good ammount of damage at the same time doesn’t fit ARPG’s gameplay too well and begins a chain reaction of unbalance that hurts diversity.

I always thought of heavy physique builds were niche for party compositions, either the ones that go nearly full physisque with just debuffs/buffs for the team and some dps skill to contribute to damage on bosses or the ones with a bit less phyisique that also contribute a bit for the AoE while still tanking, although not so resistant…

12

I do not consider it unfair, 1/4 is relative, it means you have very little defense in comparison because you somehow think that going all out offense is smart.

It’s not like the tank in turn has trouble killing anything in less than 5 minutes, so if he can manage enough offense and have that kind of defense, then you going so low on defense to pile on even more offense is not the smartest move.

Since some tanky builds do a lot of damage anyways, why dmg builds shouldn’t be able to “tank” a bit more?

Since tanky builds can dish out lots of damage, why do you think you need more offense while sacrificing defense ?

I would not mind going a bit more in the direction you are suggesting, but 1/4 defense is way too low. Sacrificing a quarter to get more offense sounds like a trade you can already make and I am not sure it really needs to be much more than that. You have to strike a balance, the tanky guy does, and your glass cannon will too or suffer the consequences.

13

There are no glass canons build in gd just squishy. And i think this was a not good game design. It is also limiting factor playwise because %40-50 of builds need stonehide x-sect of menhir wall/nature bounty or other rare defensive mis to be ‘completed’

14

not really, but feel free to read into it what you want

Lemme spin your question around on you: If having X defenses at Y levels is absolutely mandatory to survive, why have those defenses be optional at all?

well, if they are mandatory then I am not sure how they are optional at the same time. Maybe you need to rephrase your question a bit.

If the question is ‘if they are mandatory, then why do I not get them for free’ then I’d say because a) you get nothing for free, not your offense nor your defense and b) what you consider mandatory might not at all what I consider mandatory. The real mandatory defenses are really rather small, unless you play HC.

Because to me, that screams of “I need my game to have trap options so I can lord my game mastery over the newer players” and that’s just bad game design.

speak for yourself, I am not showing any ‘game mastery’, in fact I’d say there are a lot of people on here who are better at that.

Saying e.g. “well you can have lower than capped elemental resists but just about everything will kill you on sight” then it’s not an option to have uncapped elemental resists, is it?

fun fact, my resistances are uncapped as a consequence of playing self-found, and not a lot of stuff does kill me even in Ultimate. Sure, it would be better if they were capped, but it is not mandatory.
I agree that in the long run capping most of them is mandatory, but at the same time that is not that hard. Tanks overcap a lot, that is the optional part where you balance with your offense.

And if every single character in the game needs to cap those to get through the game, maybe the game’s enemies needs its math reworked

no, then it becomes a matter of how easy it is to max them.

You could say the same thing about damage. If having 800% - 1000% damage of your main damage type, then why not make enemies weaker ?

But really my question would be if you can accomplish both, then why go for 60% resistances and 1300% damage ?

It boils down to this: for most people, the fun is in active abilities. The number of people who ooh and ahh at how small their incoming damage numbers are is way lower than the number of people who like to make big numbers happen to enemies in great volume.

most of your defense does not take away from active skills and people can accomplish impressive damage even with tanky builds, so I am not too concerned here

15

To me in an ARPG most of your chars survivability and kill rate comes from the char’s skills and gear, not the players. That is the difference to an action game like Doom.

So reducing the impact of gear and skills to increase the importance of my ability to operate mouse and keyboard is not desirable.

Seems you’re forgetting not only the Action part of an ARPG, but also the Role-Playing part of an ARPG as well.

I think there is a big difference between something with a party and turn based combat and GD, no need to turn GD into Doom to have the action part in ARPG covered

Perhaps you want to roleplay as the typical rogue style character - of which the Nightblade fits perfectly. Does such a character truly ‘deserve to die’ as you say?

if you want to roleplay a rogue char, you probably should play an RPG, without the ‘A’. APGs to me are more about gear and build than roleplaying.

I guess you’re mostly interested in the ‘Game’ part of Grim Dawn.

probably, but to me that is true for pretty much any game I play, whether Doom or Divine Divinity (or Civilization or Need for Speed…)

16

Don’t like that either. If the bonuses from Cunning and Spirit for physical / elemental damage were multiplicative rather than additive, too late for that though.

17

You can always compensate with consumables or spare equip.

For me, it´s a fair Trade-Off.

18

There is 2 skills that do what you want. Blade barrier and Mirror, but with Blade Barrier you can’t attack at the same time. With the upcomming Necromancer, there a skill that last 5 sec with16 sec CD once maxed and absorb up to 50% damage once maxed, you need to cast it and affect only one monster for the duration.

A skill like you’re saying, that absorb more damage the least amount of time it’s active would mainly be good against slow heavy ennemies or monster/bosses that have a defined animation before the big hit. And utimately would act the same way as Mirror, you pop it either to counter a heavy hit or when you recieve too much damage. Most the time, it’s to counter too much damage taken, since you usually attack many monsters and for bosses if you absolutly need such a skill for every hit then the build/gear/devotion is the problem.

The way that I understand you would want such a skill to have a real low CD, in the end that would be way too good considering the current defences mechanic in GD. And with a 15 sec CD it wouldn’t be the way you seems to describe the desired gameplay. I’d say your best bet is Mirror in the arcanist mastery and the Blade barrier (but you can’t attack for the duration of this one) in the Nightblade mastery. Again, maybe the Mark of Torment skill in the upcomming Necromancer mastery might be something that you like.

19

It’s not about being smart, it’s about playstyle and it’s viability in HC.

They dish good ammounts of damage based on how much they can tank.

GC builds should only rely on their defenses being just high enough to avoid one-shots(except for special boss attacks) but their main line of defense should be active mobility/timed defense skills(which basically don’t exist) as I said, failing that they take a BIG punishment.

Different playstyles for different builds but since we don’t have these options we either play at least as half-tanks or tanks in HC, anything else seems like an exercise in frustration.

IMO the only WRONG choice someone should be able to make in a ARPG would be something like investing a lot in + cold damage if you barely use cold skills or neglecting like 90% of defenses when playing solo. Of course there should be limits of DPS/Defense one would always need to meet in order to beat harder modes, but they don’t need to be so extreme.

I don’t think there is nothing wrong in wanting GC to be viable in HC, they are a valid playstyle just like any other.

20

I am honestly not sure what OP means by “Glass Cannon” in Grim Dawn. Most “Cannons” builds in GD are tanky enough to cruise through Ultimate. There is also no breaking point at which you sacrifice defense on your gear and gain huge offense. Most builds wear the same Legendary sets that offer enough defense, you can make some exotic builds that stack huge DoTs on all pieces of gear and have little defense, but they will be just little bit faster in boss killing times than usual tanky “Cannons”. Plus they won’t be more effective versus killing trash and their clearing time would be similiar.

To me, it’s good game design. Being able to go full Glass Cannon is what Diablo 3 came down to, at least the last time I played it. In super high rifts (only ones that really matter) everything one-shots you, so every character relies on cheat-death proc, that’s it. In my opinion, huge design flaw, you are basically forced to ignore a huge part of the game that is defensive mechanics of your character.

Grim Dawn is more balanced in that sense, which is why I am choosing it over more flashy and bigger budget Diablo 3.