Major issue with "default attack" - original post

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

I am kidding about being original, but it does affect my experience greatly.
I messed up my build so much, that I got the defiler to reset my entire build because I don’t think its fair to be punished for poor explanations.

My issue was considering spammable attacks as “default attacks” and it was Forcewave.

Now, considering that tooltips follow the colorful text we’ve been used to in TQ and even WoW & other mmos, adding (RED maybe) tags which say “Default attack” and for the green crystal modifiers “removes Default Attack” and “adds spell tag” since Forcewave becomes a spell, affected by cast speed. Or maybe I’m wrong? ITS SO UNCLEAR.

Another place that is confusing are abilities obviously designed for a ranged class, like the Demolitionist, but that CAN be used with melee. Adding tags such as “works with 1h melee, 2h melee” would so easily convey the message. And if you modify it and it turns to ranged, it can show “works with 1h ranged, 2h ranged because of MODIFIER” and a crossed out text in grey with the old 1h/2h melee to show you it was modified.

As a game programmer, I find such an addition trivial, as the code probably has tags for the abilities and how they work, and text can be injected cleanly to convey such messages.

I would also add the flavor text at the bottom in italic and greyed out because who cares but lets do baby steps :frowning:

2

Forcewave is always a spell and always scales with cast speed, never a default attack. It’s just without the transmuter, it scales with both cast speed AND cooldown reduction. Just FYI.

If a skill doesn’t specifically mention a weapon requirement, it works with every weapon type.

As a game programmer, I find such an addition trivial, as the code probably has tags for the abilities and how they work, and text can be injected cleanly to convey such messages.
Forget everything you think you know when it comes to the GD engine.

That being said, adding such tags wouldn’t even be code related. It’d just be editing a raw text file. Every tooltip has its name/flavor text handwritten, including the orange text found at the bottom.

I would also add the flavor text at the bottom in italic and greyed out because who cares
Is this DotA now? :open_mouth:

3

Reminds me of my first days playing this game. I would grind my teeth trying to decipher what was meant by all the various labels. Weapon Attack, Default Attack, Default Weapon Attack, Default Attack Modifier, Weapon Attack Modifier, Default Weapon Attack Modifier, Main Hand, Default Main Hand Attack, Main Hand Default Weapon Attack Modifier…the short list, exaggerated a bit.

See everyone, I told you so. In the end they all do what they say they do, it’s just not intuitively apparent what they are saying.

4

Reminds me of my first days playing this game. I would grind my teeth trying to decipher what was meant by all the various labels. Weapon Attack, Default Attack, Default Weapon Attack, Default Attack Modifier, Weapon Attack Modifier, Default Weapon Attack Modifier, Main Hand, Default Main Hand Attack, Main Hand Default Weapon Attack Modifier…the short list, exaggerated a bit.

See everyone, I told you so.

In the end they all do what they say they do, it’s just not intuitively apparent what they are saying.

Easiest breakdown i know.

Weapon Attack is the base skill called Weapon Attack.(sword icon)
Weapon attack replacer is a skill that can be used in place of the weapon attack, and attacks with the weapon adding effects to it.
Default Weapon Attack, Default Attack are redundant terms for the weapon attack skill(mostly)

Main Hand Off Hand are literally the items you are holding, but it is confusing because the list on Page 2 of the character sheet is the Main Hand Damage Sheet, which is a collection of all the modifiers and damages that your Default Weapon Attack will do. Both the off hand item and the main hand item contribute to this sheet, but some skills will draw a percentage of the Main Hand Damage(from the sheet), and others like Forcewave from the Off Hand(from I still have no idea where).

What these things are not, as I believed for a long time, is they are not the LMB and the RMB. Main Hand is not LMB. Off Hand is Not RMB. Default Weapon Attack is not LMB. But there is something about the layout and the descriptions that led me to believe they were, resulting in a lot of confusion.

There does seem to be a bit of redundancy and double meaning in the terminology.

Fire Strike does seem to have been designed as a range exclusive skill that had the restrictions moved from the base skill to the transmuters. Someone hated the restriction on firestrike, but loved them on the Shaman skills. Perceptions are a relic of that I believe. But Firestrike makes a good melee option besides cadence. It was not a bad choice. Now if only my Druid could have Primal Strike…

5

All weapon attack replacers are stated in their tooltips that they are weapon attack replacers. Don’t see what’s so confusing about that.

Forcewave tooltip doesn’t say that it’s an auto attack replacer, therefore it’s not an auto attack replacer.

6

It is not confusing to you because you have played for ages. It’s no longer confusing to me either. If only you could play this game with fresh eyes.

Auto and Default are not the same thing. That is not a jab, it’s an illustration. You are comfortable being loose with your wording because you and anyone in-the-know knows what you mean. Its jargon. To someone who is not you are saying two different things that evoke two different ideas of what you are trying to convey. The in game descriptions on skills and character sheets are very much like this, using certain descriptors in one case but not in another, sometimes interchangeably. This is why definitions and conventions are important in trying to convey technical or specific information. “Weapon Attack” and “Default Attack” cannot (should not) mean the same thing. “Main Hand” should not refer to both the item slot and to the damages and modifiers on sheet two. Just like in code, the term is a label you are giving to a function. Once defined it can only mean that function, and only it should mean that function. Read any piece of law or well written policy and it always begins with a list of definitions, this is why.

7

Auto attack replacers such as Fire Strike state: “when used as your Default Weapon Attack…”

Coincidentally, the auto-attack skill is called Weapon Attack, which you have by default.

Feel free to point out these inconsistencies and we’ll take a look.

Tags for weapon requirements are included when they are necessary. If they are not then there is no requirement. If we list off every weapon a skill works with, most skills would list every weapon type in the game. Instead, we only list them when there are exceptions, thus…weapon requirements.

Fire Strike has Transmuters that add additional bonuses, but only when the particular weapon type is equipped, so those transmuters have weapon requirements.

8

I dunno, my first character was a sword-and-board Firestrike Commando in 2014 (later swapped to Pistol/Shield, which sucked). I thought it was pretty clear that it worked with melee since it didn’t say it didn’t work with melee and other skills mentioned their requirements.

As far as I’m aware, it’s never been ranged-only.

9

Not a claim to fact, just a conjecture. It certainly looks designed for ranged.

Then perhaps you approached it from a different train of thought, perspective. I tend to mix the details with intuition, but it is far from intuitive, and the details are not always clear as ive illustrated.

10

I’m not sure im the fresh pair of eyes to do it anymore. I think I ranted about it early on but Ive grown accustomed to most of the terms. They aren’t a game breaker, just a source of initial confusion on a steep learning curve.

One i can think of, scrub the word “default” from every instance of “weapon attack”, and change every instance of “default attack” to weapon attack, and literally make weapon attack replacers replace the weapon attack. It is hard to put a finger on because it makes more sense to me now but I recall in the beginning something about these terms and the descriptors led to a false association of LMB with Default Weapon Attack. Particularly the description on firestrike, “when used as default weapon attack deals additional damage”, just implied to me there was a specific configuration i needed to get some kind of bonus.

Also for skills that draw Main Hand and Off Hand…Main hand appears to me to be a percentage of the weapon damage from the sheet, or is it the weapon attack…that is not immediately apparent(in no small part due to the multiple descriptors for weapon attack). Off hand is unclear where that damage is coming from…Blitz for instance, with a 2H weapon, 164% Main(335-531) Off(498-540)…i got the mainhand…percentage of the total weapon attack damage listed on sheet 2…but off hand, months in, still mysterious. Unsure of the necessity for all of these sub terms still, mostly i just roll with it these days, bigger numbers are better.

There were other things. Most made more sense after experimenting for a long, long time. Much could be done up front to streamline the terms, explain them better, and even guide new players on the process of making an effective character. One big frustration was how early choices could make a build fall apart and be very ineffective later. Another is how much you need to know about later content in order to make good sensible choices early. Yes go slow, think about it, but its not immediately clear how to think about it. Yes there are resources, but a computer game should only need one, the game.

11

Blitz should not have an Offhand listing when using 2H:

12

You are right, i thought i was looking at a different soldier. Still though, is there a hidden sheet that tallys the totals for offhand damage using the shield as the base? It strange because all the modifiers and damages get dumped into the big weapon damage sheet together, and when I look at the weapon damage under abilities per hit it says Off Hand: 0 So apparently this offhand is not the same as the offhand listed on blitz. Off hand is referred to in so many places but none in such a way that a light comes on and I can say “oh, that is what it is doing”.

13

Cast speed doesn’t affect dps, so are there some other things??

14

Yeah, cooldown reduction.

If it has a cooldown, the animation to cast it will be shorter but you’re still limited by your own CDR.

15

Um, how can you make it any clearer?

Firestrike - when used as your default weapon attack, Firestrike inflicts addtional damage.
Explosive Strike - increases the potency of Fire Strike with an additional charge and inflicts additional harm on nearby foes.
Searig Might - when channeled through a mighty two-handed melee or ranged weapon Fire Strike inflicts devastating harm. Requires a two-handed melee or two-handed ranged weapon.
Searing Strike - Focussing the destructive power of Fire Strike allows it to hit with greater intensity while using less energy, but this technique can only be achieved with the propert handling of one-handed melee weapons. Requires a one-handed melee weapon.
Static Strike - Further alcheminal alterations cause Fire Strike to electrocute the target with a chance of knocking them off their feet.
Brimstone - Pyromancy with a hint of the Occult imbues Fire Strike with the chaotic power of brimstone. Ranged attacks will also splinter into molten fragments.

The bold descriptions appear ingame so it’s pretty clear to me at least what will happen depending on which type of weapon I’m using. If there’s nothing specifying a particular type of weapon then Fire Strike will work with all types.

16

The problem is this statement, just as OP implies, just as I complained at first. The immediate question it raises is how do I use it as the “default attack”? How do I set it to be the default? The most intuitive answer is, “assign it to your LMB”. Why, because the skill “weapon attack” is assigned to that button by default. And no one can be faulted for thinking that because that understanding is a proper understanding of the word “default”.

The description is ambiguous, or should be to anyone who knows what default means. It is an improper use of the word “default”. What is meant is “Firestrike is a Weapon Attack Replacer. Use Firestrike instead of Weapon Attack to deal additional damage with your normal weapon attacks.”

But i see you are focused on the confusion with the 1h 2h ranged. I am looking at the general picture where OP keeps putting “default attack” in quotes and indicates that, as a general issue, the descriptions are unclear. Perhaps more generally, all the skills have classes. Weapon Pool Skills, Weapon Attack Replacers, etc, that generalize the way they work, but I don’t think a single skill advertises what class it falls under.

But on the 1h 2h ranged issue, OP is right. It is perhaps better to say explicitly what each skill does rather than imply it by the absence of a statement of what it does, or what it only works with. Just like the components, each one tells you exactly what it works with.

17

I see… Finally forced myself to test this. A bit stupid thing cause usually you don’t increase casting speed at non-caster builds.

18

Yeah i think for veterans everything is so natural and so easy understand it now, they fail to look with fresh recruit eyes. At first, it was not very clear to understand even with descriptions… especially wps/default attack modifier part. I believe, even descriptions were lacking at first and Crate added them on demand? I think advanced mechanics and some detailed infos are not in the game deliberately. Companies like to force users to research which feeds their ego and lessen their documentary burdens ;)… Advanced mechanics and other detailed info threads(conversion for example) are the proof of that.

19

I think you oversell us. :wink:

20

Damn, missed with a minute… changed it to veterans:rolleyes: