Making a support, could use some pointers on mechanics

[113]

Basically I’m playing a certain char with 2 friends. As it stands one is a summoner, the other went with battlemage who will be melee. Me, I decided to make a support char, just because it seems fun and I haven’t seen a build on it… Now, first class is Demo, cause it’s fun and supportive. I have some questions though.

1.a, Blackwater Cocktail: How useful is the debuff on offence on the mainskill? I’m worried that raising this skill will make me get much more aggro than I intended, but more on that later, might not be a problem.
I either go 1 point here and get the transmuter simply for the -physical, or I go all out here…
1.b, Demon fire: 180 reduced armor on max lvl (without bonuses) is it really worth it?
1.c, Agonizing flames: some reduced elemental here, only 25 though but every little bit helps right?

2.a Flashbang: Maxed.
2.b Searing light: Not sure if slow stacks with Curse of Frailty, also not sure how good impaired aim and fumbled attacks is, but most likely a lot of points here?

3. Canister bomb: Maxed transmuter for the stun, BUT since I’ll be using it mainly for the stun, is it worth placing points in it for the extra fragments? 4-6 with 1, 8-10 maxed… Maybe a few? Most things in the area would get hit anyways, right?

4. Thermite mines: I know they are good, but it’s only if someone stands on it, might be hard to get the pets to do what we want here so I’m not sure this skill will be a focus, at least not prioritized until later.

Also, I will be using the Flame touched aura, probably maxed and not that much in the second part (temper) depending on how much focus we will get on elemental damage. The battlemage will most likely be using IEE with the transmuter to help the summoners pets (does it work on other players pets?)

5. Second class. Most likely I’m going to pick either bSoldier[/b] or bArcanist[/b].

6.a, Field command: would give me Field Command and Squad tactics, of which I could max both (more offence for the summons would be the reason to max field command in this case, since Im support I can spend points on this )
6.b TauntI might get a few point in Taunt and Break Morale. How good is the damage reduction in this case and how hard will I aggro(my oppinion is it doesn’t really aggro that hard, compared to damage dealers)? The physical res reduction might not be worth it if we go this heavy on elemental and such, so perhaps no Break morale?
6.c Defence If I go soldier I’ll have a few more safe defence options including a shield so Aggro will be less of a problem in a way, this might let me use a decent high level BWC (which draws a lot of aggro, am I right?) and still survive. This would also mean Taunt would actually be nice if it aggros enough for the enemy to stand in my flames.
6.d Comments on Commando support version: Do you think it would work? There is a set for this I believe?

7.a Callidors tempest and Inferno: I’ll most likely just put one point in the main skill and get the transmuter to get some knockback as defence (and in some cases offence I guess), but should I get Inferno? on max it’s just 108 reduced armor, how useful is it really? Especially on a situational skill. Unless someone thinks it’s super useful I will skip it.
7.b Olexra’s Flash freeze when maxed it has a really nice area of effect, which let’s me freeze a whole bunch of enemies and since the battle mage + all the pets of the summoners would deal a bit of fire it would help to lower the fire res by 100. It would also synergy well with a possible maxed BWC?
7.c NullificationThis would actually be the main reason to pick Sorcerer. A maxed nullification will give me a very low recharge and allow me to remove good/bad stuff quite often.
7.d Comments on Sorcerer version, For defence I’d use maivens sphere and mirror obviously, but having a high nullification allows me to use that often + I could spare the battlemage a few points from OFF allowing him to spend them elsewhere while it would also synergy well with BWC and pets. Squishier than Commando though. If I don’t go Sorcerer I might force him to get it instead (comments on that?)

8. Gear We are self found, the summoner is also a new player and we don’t play crucible so we might be low on all the purple items going on out there, but we have a few… I got that moonglow weapon so I could use flashfreeze on “immune” bosses for a bit (if i understand it correctly) but besides that we will have to go with what we can find. Any tips on what to be happy about, or any good ideas on some good component auras that would work well is appreciated. I will most likely use both Pistol and Shield, unless I go with the moonglow weapon. This enables me to use Enchanted Flint for the fire aura, but besides that I’m not sure.

9. Devotions: I got the idea that healing rain actually heals allies too, but am really not sure? If it does, it would be a good idea I guess. Nymph is AoE and removes negatives I think, but not sure if it’s really worth it. Especially if I play with nullifications. As mentioned I might use BWC so some burning would perhaps help from devotions, but besides that, are there any other nice devotions out there debuffing and helping out? I really haven’t played enough to try out all the devotions yet

10.Thanks in advance for any thoughts and ideas Also, I know Occultist would have CoF but i’d be lacking defence and wouldn’t like the aggro + the summoner needs something to do (also I’m tired of occultist). Also I know Shaman has a good aura + wendigo totems and such, but kinda tired of Shaman too.

[113]

reserved for future posting of grimcalc and such, after I find out a bit more about the mechanics and so on

[Stupid_Dragon]

Judging by the setup being a Summoner, a melee Battlemage and you, you actually need to be a super powerful ranged damage dealer, both single target and AOE. It is they who should be supporting YOU by being a meat shield and debuffing your enemies, not the other way around.

Since you had already chosen a demolitionist,

1. Fire Strike, Brimstone, Flametouched, Vindictive Flame, later Static Strike, Explosive Strike and Temper.
2. Maxed Flashbang. Monster’s DA is a bitch in multiplayer.
3. Devotions - 100% offensive. Viper, Solael’s Witchblade, Chariot of the Dead, Ulzuin’s Torch, Rhowan’s Crown, partially Abomination.

Support your friends by providing your divine DPS.

[113]

Judging by the setup being a Summoner, a melee Battlemage and you, you actually need to be a super powerful ranged damage dealer, both single target and AOE. It is they who should be supporting YOU by being a meat shield and debuffing your enemies, not the other way around.

Since you had already chosen a demolitionist,

1. Fire Strike, Brimstone, Flametouched, Vindictive Flame, later Static Strike, Explosive Strike and Temper.
2. Maxed Flashbang. Monster’s DA is a bitch in multiplayer.
3. Devotions - 100% offensive. Viper, Solael’s Witchblade, Chariot of the Dead, Ulzuin’s Torch, Rhowan’s Crown, partially Abomination.

Support your friends by providing your divine DPS.

Well a bunch of summons would all benefit from added OA and reduced OA on enemies, also any auras would affect every summon + the battlemage so we should be able to make it work. We also have 3 people so we have many ways to get auras and debuffs, all in all we should be able to manage. The point isn’t making a powerful demolitionist, I know I can make both a melee and ranged one (cause i’ve played them), but the point was making a support for them so that’s what I’ll do. I plan to spam debuffs like crazy, because it’s fun, not because it’s optimal

But good to know about the DA! So, thanks for that Flashbang will be as useful as I thought then.

[Stupid_Dragon]

Well a bunch of summons would all benefit from added OA and reduced OA on enemies, also any auras would affect every summon + the battlemage so we should be able to make it work. We also have 3 people so we have many ways to get auras and debuffs, all in all we should be able to manage. The point isn’t making a powerful demolitionist, I know I can make both a melee and ranged one (cause i’ve played them), but the point was making a support for them so that’s what I’ll do. I plan to spam debuffs like crazy, because it’s fun, not because it’s optimal

But good to know about the DA! So, thanks for that Flashbang will be as useful as I thought then.

If you’re dead set on supporting then can’t help you much. I don’t find supporting in GD neither fun nor optimal, and this is coming from someone who played a support in HoN and Dota2, as well as Priest in WoW. Quite amusing that you ended up with the worst team composition to support - a good for nothing battlemage and a class that is himself a support to his minions.

[113]

Hehe yeah I know, we play hardcore though (forgot to mention that) so a few summons don’t hurt. It won’t be the fastest but I think it’ll work, just unsure how good the skills I mentioned are. Need to know where to focus

Edit: like I said I might get bwc and work on burn dmg and if it really doesn’t work I can respecc lategame

Maybe you know how good lowering armor about 100 would be and how good lowering enemy offence by 100 would be? Lowering da you already mentioned is good

[Stupid_Dragon]

Hehe yeah I know, we play hardcore though (forgot to mention that) so a few summons don’t hurt. It won’t be the fastest but I think it’ll work, just unsure how good the skills I mentioned are. Need to know where to focus

Edit: like I said I might get bwc and work on burn dmg and if it really doesn’t work I can respecc lategame

Maybe you know how good lowering armor about 100 would be and how good lowering enemy offence by 100 would be? Lowering da you already mentioned is good

IIRC 100 points in difference between OA and DA equals 4% more/less crit chance.
Given that 100 armor with 70% armor absorbtion will soak 70 damage, it will increase your physical hits by 70. Probably worth it early on, but once you measure your DPS in thousands it’s not that good. I think late veteran/early elite is where it shines.

In HC multiplayer I usually take the bulky melee role and my friend provides AOE and control. I enjoy trolling him about having three times his heath
Neither of us are full supports and each can do well on his own. But he does enjoy my health aura and I do enjoy energy leech from his IEE.

[Sargon]

As Stupid Dragon said, with that team composition you will probably need do deal most of the damage. If you don’t mind being squishy, go with pyromancer or sorcerer. You should also consider elementalist as an option, which is tankier and a very versatile class. You can go either ranged (fire or lightning) or melee with lightning. You can also be a caster and spam stun jacks. As a support, you can sapm wendigo totems, which are very useful for heals.

[Chthon]

I’ve never played with any party that had a pet character in it but i think a Sorcerer would do fine in this case.

You’re a support tank, in the sense you steal aggro from your enemies and all of them attack you.

So this way the Battlemage and the Pet guy are free to deal as much damage as they want w/o worrying too much about getting killed

Black Water Cocktail needs to be spammed to make sure you can keep the aggro (Unless of course the Burn ticks are strong enough to maintain aggro in that case use the transmuter)

Now a Sorcerer isn’t exactly a tank it’s just that you have a lot of defensive options there in multiplayer provided you gimp your offensive potential entirely.

As for my own Party experience it involves trolling each other to their deaths

P.S

My post is shorter since Dragon’s advice is also something you should consider.

[Stupid_Dragon]

So this way the Battlemage and the Pet guy are free to deal as much damage as they want w/o worrying too much about getting killed

The problem is for pets to do damage their targets need to stand still. Same for melee battlemage. Drawing aggro from melee enemies results in them chasing you non-stop, and since BWC sorc is unlikely to be durable enough to facetank them they would be losing DPS because of such “support tanking”.

[Chthon]

The problem is for pets to do damage their targets need to stand still. Same for melee battlemage. Drawing aggro from melee enemies results in them chasing you non-stop, and since BWC sorc is unlikely to be durable enough to facetank them they would be losing DPS because of such “support tanking”.

Hmm, I think Drizzto did it like this which is why i suggested it.

[Stupid_Dragon]

Hmm, I think Drizzto did it like this which is why i suggested it.

If I remember correctly, it was a special build for killing Mogdrogen. Mogdrogen is a ranged caster, so he stands still while nuking you, allowing blademaster to just hold LMB. If Mogdrogen was able to transform into super fast melee wolf that Blademaster would do almost no damage.

Mogdrogen is pretty much the only enemy that justifies support/DPS role split.

[Chthon]

was able to transform into super fast melee wolf

You have a sweet-ass imagination. I like it

And i’d love to put down the actual arrogant wolf whose foolish avatar dared to insult us

[Drizzto]

Oh boys, talking about the support sorcerer. <3

To answer some question from the OP:

1.a, Blackwater Cocktail: How useful is the debuff on offence on the mainskill? I’m worried that raising this skill will make me get much more aggro than I intended, but more on that later, might not be a problem.
I either go 1 point here and get the transmuter simply for the -physical, or I go all out here…

BWC spam is one of the best aggro builder, if you dont want to be a tank then you can go for the transmuter.

1.b, Demon fire: 180 reduced armor on max lvl (without bonuses) is it really worth it?

Armor debuff is completely useless you can skip this one.

1.c, Agonizing flames: some reduced elemental here, only 25 though but every little bit helps right?

25 flat RR is really good, tho you can achieve the same result with manticore.

2.b Searing light: Not sure if slow stacks with Curse of Frailty, also not sure how good impaired aim and fumbled attacks is, but most likely a lot of points here?

Searing light is very good, invest a minimum of 8/10 here. (and CoF dont interfere with it btw)

4. Thermite mines: I know they are good, but it’s only if someone stands on it, might be hard to get the pets to do what we want here so I’m not sure this skill will be a focus, at least not prioritized until later.

If someone in your group have main damage lightning or fire, its definitly a must have.

5. Second class. Most likely I’m going to pick either bSoldier[/b] or bArcanist[/b].

Both are ok. here you can find my old thread about my support sorcerer, maybe it will give you some inspiration, gear is completely flexible you can build far more tankier than this.

[113]

Thanks for replies, we are roughly lvl 22 at the moment, so far I’ve just put a few points in flame touched to boost my teammates (unsure if it affects other people’s pets?) and roughly 3 points in canister bomb for added fragments (also the transmuter for stun 100%) and also afew points in flashbang and it’s follow up skill. From arcanist I’ve taken a maxed flashfreeze. So basically I freeze everything then I stun it, then I flashbang it and then I can freeze again.
Also I’m working on mastery towards nullification atm so I can debuff enemies, since we are starting the path to cronley now. So far it’s been really fun, right now OFF is actually a bit offensive too but that will change later as the damage isn’t going to be enough. But it’s working well and it’s really fun and an active playstyle is needed.

I do have 7 Devotion points unplaced though, no idea what I’ll go for. Considering whirlpool on flashbang if that could work to slow a bit more, but we will see. Any ideas?

But really, so far (yeah I know it’s early) I’m the one controlling the battlefield. On the warden I got the aggro if I wanted it, so I believe it can be managed and balanced.

I need more points in flashbang though, probably should max flame touched since I lower fire res so much and they will benefit from it.

But it’s fun, and it’ll be dangerous later so it’ll be even more fun. Loving it

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Missed the second page!

Does the flat res reduction from agonizing flames stack with the one from manticore? I mean, I could get both if they do

Also I’ll look into your link drizzto

But the mines, are they needed? I found them quirky with my dw fire commando, I imagine it’ll be even worse with summons in multi-player… At least a person can stop infront of them and force someone to stand in them, summons won’t do that.

[Stupid_Dragon]

Missed the second page!

Does the flat res reduction from agonizing flames stack with the one from manticore? I mean, I could get both if they do

Also I’ll look into your link drizzto

But the mines, are they needed? I found them quirky with my dw fire commando, I imagine it’ll be even worse with summons in multi-player… At least a person can stop infront of them and force someone to stand in them, summons won’t do that.

1. Flat reduction doesn’t stack, that’s the reason you typically need a single most powerful source. Since you use BWC anyway you don’t need manticore.
2. Thermite Mines are quirky, but probably one of the strongest resistance reducing abilities in the game. The question is - do any of guys you intend to support use fire, lightning or elemental? If not, then decide for yourself if your damage is worth it. Same for Widow/Solael’s Witchblade - they are very good debuffs, but what about your friend’s damage types? Pets are typically mostly physical, battlemage is also mostly physical if it’s not a discord battlemage. In that regard Assasin’s Blade might be your choice actually.
3. You need Imp and/or Magi. Imp’s Aetherfire provides confusion and is a very good ability to bind to Canister. Fissure from magi provides stun and is also a very good ability to bind to Canister, but can be bound to BWC or Thermites. All of these are fire constellations, so you’ll be able to at least do some damage with your BWC. Solael’s Witchblade is also a nice thing to have, it slows and reduces fire/chaos resistance, just what you need for your BWC.

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Ah, thanks, no double flat reduction then. Imp sounds like a good start, sitting on phone now and it won’t let me check devotions but I seem to recall it being easy and fast to get.
I think the battlemage will focus on elemental dmg with IEE and there’s a transmuter that allows it to affect pets (though it’s unclear if it’s only your own pets or not) so we thought we would deal a lot of elemental. Also with flametouched I will provide a lot of fire damage (and I think lightning too right?) so I guess we do a lot… I’ll learn to live with the mines then I guess the combo of flashfreeze and mines will do wonders for fire damage.

How good is stun in ultimate? From canister bombs I mean, does it still work?

Also, I’ll take those Devotions in consideration though I am a bit curious how good whirlpool slow is?

Solaels blade might be squeezed I there too for some added fire lowering

[Stupid_Dragon]

(though it’s unclear if it’s only your own pets or not)

I’m 99% sure that it’s only your pets.

Also with flametouched I will provide a lot of fire damage (and I think lightning too right?)

“A lot” is a big overstatement. It provides with a lot of %fire and %lightning, but flat fire is only 21 and no flat lightning.

How good is stun in ultimate? From canister bombs I mean, does it still work?

Pretty much the same as in normal, maybe slightly worse. Still works against trash and still useless against heroes and some brutes like yetis and flesh hulks.

Also, I’ll take those Devotions in consideration though I am a bit curious how good whirlpool slow is?

It’s decent, but don’t bother with it. Optimize your devotions for BWC, which does fire, burn and chaos. You’re in luck, because Fire damage got a lot of constellations with “support” effects - Imp, Magi, Witchblade. As for easy to get debuffs you can grab Scorpion, although I can imagine your summoner friend wanting to put it on his Briarthorn.

[113]

I’m 99% sure that it’s only your pets.

“A lot” is a big overstatement. It provides with a lot of %fire and %lightning, but flat fire is only 21 and no flat lightning.

Pretty much the same as in normal, maybe slightly worse. Still works against trash and still useless against heroes and some brutes like yetis and flesh hulks.

It’s decent, but don’t bother with it. Optimize your devotions for BWC, which does fire, burn and chaos. You’re in luck, because Fire damage got a lot of constellations with “support” effects - Imp, Magi, Witchblade. As for easy to get debuffs you can grab Scorpion, although I can imagine your summoner friend wanting to put it on his Briarthorn.

Yeah, putting those in the summoner and I’ll go for firedevotions then. I’ll keep some canister bomb with the imp for a long time then and yeah, youre right on the fire stuff but some at least.