you pretty much did, I was summarizing it
Do specify how any of my words can be summarized as such by anyone literate on the language.
Saying that patches are not justifications for releasing a flawed product does not mean I expect them to release something in a perfect state.
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Do you speak the language ? it is right there…
Me: They knew [the Oathkeeper was OP] but did not delay the release because they release patches.
You (direct reply): So, can I sell you a blank piece of canvas that I may or may not turn into the next Mona Lisa?
My summary: “Maya said Crate not releasing the expansion in a state that ‘needed’ no patches is akin to Maya selling you a blank page and promising to paint the Mona Lisa on it”
If you want to argue, yeah, you did not even promise a Mona Lisa, but that is not a point in your favor…
I teach the language or used to anyways.
And yes, I am calling bs on your summary. Not my problem you wish to lie and act surprised if the other party isn’t willing to buy it.
I can see why you no longer do…
fine, I stand by it and the others can be the judge of that. You twist everything around constantly, so I do not particularly care (nor am I surprised) that you disagree.
I very much doubt that given you can’t even comprehend the words on your monitor.
Says the person who believes they know what another person meant more than that person themselves.
And just because you can’t argue logically to form a position to prove me wrong does not mean that I am twisting anything around. Your lack of comprehension or the preoccupation with lying is not my fault to blame.
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@grey-maybe did you try to turn everything off (all procs and buffs off, naked char with just two white weapons) and then test different wps combos?
i haven’t done it yet, need to mod some stuff for more objective testings.
Was the original point that, while on one hand yes, Crate releases patches to fix things, on the other hand, the data they use to evaluate and implement fixes each patch is often pulled from player feedback and build performances?
The difference in the example of FG release from what I can understand from following along is that in this situation, Crate was already aware there was a balance issue with Oathkeeper class/Warlord at time of release, and therefore didnt need to evaluate any player feedback or build performance data but instead were already planning to balance it in the first patch following release?
Yes it is.
No, it isn’t.
Uh huh.
Nuh uhh
Yeah way
No way
Oh boy this thread went on a path that was totally expected.
\o/
#winning
#tigerblood
Although this example might not apply here to other, it sure does from my point of view.
Hearthstone mathematics (YouTube channel) put out a video and spoke about the release of demon hunter and the fact that it wouldn’t have brought back players to hearthstone if it ended up being a low tier class. So they released it and scrambled to bring it in line.
Not saying Crate did this, but saying it makes sense from that perspective to release new classes/items that are super good to create hype.
Now that could backfire of course when you nerf stick stuff but that’s the circle that is constantly seen in this type of balance.
Another example of this I witnessed was how dumb paladins were in WoW when the pre WotLK x pac patch hit. I figured out a way to out heal circle of healing priests while spec’d into Ret wearing healing gear but stacking hots when heals crit, stacking haste and crit chance. Even if the tool tip didn’t say it, those crit heals would stack the hot. On top of that, they designed Ret to never run out of mana. Spam holy lights was all I did and saw stoopid rolling hot numbers.
Regardless of what state, things were brought in line and it wasn’t like they just let things go leaving us only to stare at class combo guides that had oathkeeper/x in every title.
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Do we need to split this split-off thread to a split-off for total nonsense?
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TBH - Isn’t that what this thread already is? 
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Aye. so you get even more nonsense after splitting it off another time.
Eventually, you end up with pure, concentrated crystallized form and can use it to make a build that can farm Aether Crystals.
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None of it was the “original point” tbh. This is a split-off of a thread that itself was split from its initial thread and is pretty much a meme mess.
But if talking of the argument between me and mamba,
I initially said that Crate only found out about the OP’ness of warlords after the community revealed it, and hence player feedback has more value than what certain preatorians seemed to think.
When that was countered with “Crate already knew”, I said that they could have easily fixed it before FG release if they knew Warlords were OP and since they didn’t, it makes things even worse.
Mamba tried to use the existence of patches as justification, saying since they could have easily patched out any problems they didn’t see the point in delaying release.
I compared it with selling an unfinished product with the promise of finishing it later on since patches are not and should not be justification for releasing something unfinished or flawed.
I gave a personal example using my own builds. I can always update them and do update them along with my guide, sometimes even without any new GD patches, simply because I want to provide the best to anyone following said builds or guide. What I do not do is release an unfinished work knowing it needs changes, using the excuse of being able to make changes as needed, later on.
For some reason, Mamba decided to create a strawman argument, stating that I was essentially calling Crate out for “not releasing the expansion in a state that ‘needed’ no patches”, which ofcourse is both a lie and something impossible of a standard to hold anyone to.
I am not and never will demand perfection, but I will call out those who are willing to deliver something broken or flawed, fully knowing.
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I think your comparison would have been more valid if Oathkeeper mastery was unplayable (along with the rest of the FG content), because in that case one would have bought something that cannot be used. But since it has been playable and the mastery was too good, these things imply the problem is something else, such as numbers and balance. At least, this is how I see it.
On another note, I think it is difficult to speak about the finished/unfinished state of a game that is updated with the patches, because when is such a game finished? What kind of patch/content would make it complete and finished? More items? More masteries? More areas to explore?
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Before getting any further on this, let me say that this topic was split from another topic that itself was split from another. None of this is within the original context of anything and unless one backtracks all the way or have been here from the start, it won’t make proper sense.
That said, the problem during FG release was kind of the opposite. Everyone (including me who swears by only pet builds), was making Oathkeeper based builds because they did everything better than all other mastery combos (except maybe pets…)
Was it a business tactic intended to boost sales during release the way MOBAs and such do? I doubt Crate is like that, so for all my insults, that is not an accusation I will make. But it did create a situation where the answer to pretty much everything was insert class here + Oathkeeper, which was bad in its own way.
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