The terminology here is interesting… since this game blurs the line between the traditional terms of ‘caster’ and ‘melee’.
In most games, squishy chars cast spells and stay at range, but in GD some squishies stand toe-to-toe with mobs for various reasons - perhaps because they have high damage, or they have some kind of shield skill/spell, or because they want to proc something, like ABB’s chain has a skill that can proc cold that applies to all skills while active (forget the name) - so…
Although they are classed here as ‘melee’ because they fight right in front of their enemies, they’re really casters (‘spell-casters’) to my mind and I think lots of other people think that as well…
So, since many discussions here seem to be based on people having different understandings of these terms, maybe we need some new terminology?
True. Personally, I define Ranged and Melee as the range the character is at, not so much what they use for damage. Then Attack V Caster is generally based, for me, on how important the Weapon Damage is to the build…Simply because the line between spell and attack is very thin in this game. That does leave Callidor’s in a weird spot, but generally, if it’s 1H, I call that Casting, and the reverse if 2H.
All that applies OFC to the most important skill on the bar, the one you’re using for your primary damage. But that’s just how I do it, and it seems to work for me.
Yes I think you’re right that the distance the char wants (or needs) to be from the target is the ranged vs melee aspect.
Then there’s what they use to do their damage…
Caster (since it’s short for spell-caster’) would mean they use… well, spells. Seems clear enough.
But what is the converse? We already used melee, so maybe it’s about how they do damage… do they hit things with their weapon or do they cast a spell.
How would we classify a char using a gun? Ranged - of course, but is it a caster or ‘the other thing’? What if the gun does 1 damage but the bullet carries 4 million cold damage? What if it’s the other way round?
Maybe it’s caster versus ‘weapon-attack’? There must be a better/shorter way to say that though!
In GD, I think caster means that the character’s main source of damage (his LMB, for example) is a skill that uses cast speed instead of attack speed. I would consider, for example, a Forcewave pure physical build to be a caster, even though it uses a main hand weapon damage based skill.
Casters in GD often HOLD a gun…But do they use it? Many times they simply hold a weapon that seems to be suitable for attacking, but they never use anything that causes a swing of the weapon/projectile to be fired.
Perhaps THAT is the defining characteristic. Does the damage source, whatever it is, cause a weapon to be swung/fired? This correctly places Callidor’s as a Spell, as nothing is swung/fired, and correctly places Attacks. It also fits situations like, say, The Quillthrower of Dreeg, which can be used in DEE builds, but is never actually fired, it’s there for stats and the skill, really. A few shots may be thrown in, but the main damage source is DEE, which is clearly not fired from the weapon.
That depends on the build, Cad. I again reference Dreeg’s Quillthrower…Also, it could just be a preference thing, and even if all casters used daggers and wands, the definition would still fit, as they are not striking with the wands or daggers to cast.
this is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on here in a while. yes daggers and wands are used by alot of casters, but using a gun doesn’t make the person a noob caster.
Hell the phantasmal blades set uses a gun, Earthscorcher has a beast of a damage proc (made even better by dualwielding them, and its quite easy to max out cast speed if you go sorcerer)
And I’m sure there are plenty of other caster guns that can make a non noob caster build.
Absolutely nothing says a caster has to use dagger or scepter, and not all daggers scepters are caster weapons.
I dont see any terminology issues here, melee chars have to stay in melee range and hit with weapons and their dps is related to attack speed, while casters can hit from range their dps is related to casting speed and dont use weapons (Im not counting some weapon component in some casting skills).
Ranged are using range weapons and some default attack replacing skill or w/e (primal strike) and benefit from attack speed.
Ofc all of them can use some buff/debuff skills like ABB, RoS, BoD, etc.
What about Callidor’s Tempest? It’s Melee, but it seems to be a spell, as it relates to Casting Speed. So by your definitions, CT doesn’t exist. Hence the aforementioned need for terminology specification.
You are right melee CT doesn’t exist, CT that does exist has a range (radius if its easier to comprehend). Hence you should get more familiar with CT description.
Pretty much this. Melee CT isn’t actually a thing. CT casters are generally at melee range since most of them build it nice and tanky
Although casting it from a distance works as well.
Also, Melee Casters don’t exist. Even Shotgun builds like Tremor, PB or WK Might casters who try to stay in melee range to make the most of shotguns aren’t exactly melee
melee means attacking with a no range (melee) weapon
if you’re casting, you’re not attacking
so, at best, you can have a melee range caster, melee caster doesn’t exist anywhere, or to be more precise, melee indicates the range
I think we already established that the distance from the enemy was melee vs ranged.
The remaining question was about caster vs… what?
I’m surprised to see some here saying that there’s no such thing as a melee caster - some builds that cast spells also need to be at melee range to proc some additional buffs. Some spell casters actively choose to just stand and get swarmed while they pump out enough damage and healing to survive (PB SB may be an example, looking at ETK’s video). Basically they make no real attempt to keep mobs at range with any freeze/slow effects.
Re caster vs ‘something else’ - I’m not sure about the distinction between attack speed vs cast speed, maybe that’s all it is, but it doesn’t feel right. The number of builds I’ve read that say ‘caster’, then the playstyle says use SS on LMB to teleport into a pack and start dropping spells… hmmm, clear as mud.
I don’t understand the PRM point - the sentence you quoted didn’t mention caster or otherwise.
ABB to proc Lethal Assault is an example.
I don’t understand the point you are making re “choosing” vs “forced” - there was never any suggestion hat anyone was forced to do anything.
If I knew why then I would have given concrete reasons - when I say it doesn’t feel right, that means that I can’t put my finger on the exact reasons. Perhaps it has something to do with having seen attack-speed skills that can be used at range and that exude some kind of spell effect rather than whacking stuff.
Well… some people have stated that having an attack-speed skill on LMB makes you a non-caster. It just goes to show how difficult it is to define.
In the end, there are so many hybrids and exceptions that the concept of caster vs non-caster is probably moot.
Sorry for that I just find it much easier :undecided:
When you say melee or ranged I just asked is than PRM ranged like for example FS helborne/VoS or more like CT/BWC caster?
ABB has nice range so you dont have to be in melee range to cast it.
To deal dmg melee chars are forced to be and stay in melee range (DOTs excluded), casters are not, thus if they are attacking from melee or almost melee range is their choice.
I wrote earlier what are distinct differences between casters and melee. Having w/e skill on lmb doesn’t mean much, you can put ˝move to˝ on lmb if you want.
Concept is not moot, concept is clear if you are not looking to make it moot by purpose. You can make pure caster and pure melee build w/o any exceptions if you do not chose to make some hybrid.
