Modding Related Change Coming in

With Version, and the introduction of the Crucible, we are going to close a loophole in the way the game loads mods which has the possibility of impacting some projects:

Presently, there is a way to load a mod which will kick you back into the main menu. If you then load the Main Campaign, changes from your mod will override the default game files. For all intents and purposes, this is an exploit, but one we left alone for a long time.

However, with the upcoming Crucible game mode, this actually presented an issue for us which had to be addressed.

As such, this method of “injecting” modded files into the main campaign will no longer work with V1.0.0.5.

Given that standard mods without their own world file default to using the main campaign’s world already, I am not 100% certain this method is necessary for mods to exist. Knowledge of this method isn’t particularly widespread either, but some modders may be using it for their own purposes.

As such, I wanted to post this here so that anyone that feels strongly about this change can present their case for why this method is necessary for your work.

Note: mods that are loaded through Custom Game and not through the Main Campaign are not impacted by this in any way.

RIP bounce method
2016 - 2016

I’m pretty sure this was only done to allow for Main Campaign characters to use mods. Not aware of any other reasons for it.

RIP DAIL :stuck_out_tongue:

rip event modd servers/ bb gd

Wow i hope that what was possible before true modding the main campaign filles will still be possible, because pretty much all my fav mods are doing that :frowning:

Like what? I’m sure most mods will still work fine with this change.

Heh I prob overeacted, turns out only mod that still does this that i use is dail if i recall, i could be wrong tho, i dont 100% get what this change means :slight_smile:

Basically some people were using a “bounce” exploit/method which would force custom campaign files into the main campaign. This lets you use your main chars with mods instead of having to make new ones, but it also lets people do other malicious things in MP and cheat with this new game mode.

DAIL Doesn’t do this. you load the mod and play directly in the game. i do over write database.arz but i added an “uninstall” option for that. it was only for convenience for building it. (less dirs for me to deal with).

if they add a CLI .arz packer I will change it and not change the root database.arz

@ceno. this wont break current dail implementation

So…do we still have any possibility to play mods in the main game together with persons who only have the original non modded game files? Like exchanging database so mods are already loaded when starting the game or will we get a version issue error that disables this?

If not, this is going to kill a lot of cool possibilities…and for me personally 50% of gaming fun in multiplayer mode.

RIP events :frowning:

I was planing to run event servers basing on real world events (halloween, christmas…etc) in the main game with a theme map (object basing redesigned map, e.g. DC / lower crossing) and fun stuff for players (monster wave events, enchanted chests, different pets like heros or bosses instead, different working skills, different working monsters / bosses, pvp events etc) without requiring them to run a mod so people can join in easily.

This worked perfectly fine in tq and also does with the current game version. It would really overkill it for me to loose this and basing on the feedback from players who joined, they really enjoyed it.

If you remove the bouncing method, I’d really appreciate any other way to do this.

This was the big reason back in Titan Quest as well, where the method was originally used.

It shouldn’t make a big difference. XMAX was the big one I remember requiring this but that was mostly to prevent conflicts, you could always merge the XMAX changes into the main database but getting it to work with other mods was the trouble.

Using the custom game method meant you could keep using your main characters and overhaul/UI mods with XMAX on without having to fuck with any files.

While this sounds fun, and a really positive thing to do with this method, the approach is also very open to harmful behavior that can ruin people’s experiences. Imagine the same thing that you’re doing, but instead fill it with insta-death on join, items that perma-kill your character when equipped and other such hostile behaviors.

Not sure there’s a way to reconcile the positives with the negatives here. Such events could still be hosted as custom worlds.

This!!! (Bolded part) Definitely don’t want to see this happening in GD, it happened to me the very first time I joined a MP game in TQ, it was my first character and I had sunk 30/40hours into it and I lost it due to that happening I was so confused and pissed off that it happened and heart broken (I was 13 at the time).

By the sounds of it what your doing pretty much stops the possibility of that happening in main game? That’s great to hear!

Just do what Zantai said Elfe and make them through custom quest instead, I absolutely enjoyed those events of yours (when I could make it to them)

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Zantai… I think this is two fold… First the mod would have to be installed by the person. Second it would have to be allowed by the community. Something like this would be wild fire.

The other Catch 22 is the fact that Mods have their disclaimer. If you do not want to use the mod there is always verifying your game files and getting rid of the mod.

I think the worry of the greifing is a little out of proportion since it requires the download / install / loading of said mod. You are also viewing those as pure negatives as that custom mod with absolute perma death could be a new challenge mode.

That’s the problem. The method described does NOT require the user’s approval/installation (just joining a hosted game that is running the injected changes, and that may not be advertised) and that is why it is prone to griefing.

If somebody wants to make a legit permadeath mod, they are more than welcome to and already have the means.

If your goal is really just to get rid of this, disabling the loading of modded databases won’t solve the problem as this is only one of many ways to kill players outside pvp games or even in pvp games inside pvp disabled areas.

Both is possible without having to load moded databases.

It’s not like we can’t get such items without mods into the game.

Seriously, this is done easier without mods then with mods and won’t be solved by this at all.

The simplest way is to add a warning when you’re about to join a modded game (or a game that has a different database, checked via hash or whatever else way the versions are getting checked) that the game you’re about to join could be modded and that joining is on own risc so people are warned and can decided themselves and in case, make backups of their characters before joining.

I know that you’re only trying to prevent bad stuff for players but I think the best you can do is a compromise with a warning as described above as this way no possibilities get limited / removed and people can decide on their own risc.

As for custom quest…this is absolutelly the opposide of what I wanted to do, it requires downloading stuff only to be able to even join and if people already have to download stuff there is no point in making anything serversided anymore if you simply can provide everything via download and therefore earn more possibilities in customizing.

Back in tq, entire modder scenes were founded for this kind of stuff and it was a community that held until the end of tq’s online time when the servers went down.

Lots of creative stuff were created and from my personal experience, as modding is a really lonely job, learning modding while playing with people online by hosting a modded server to test stuff is way more rewarding then having to try everything alone, not to speak of better possibilities to find the limits of stuff and having the possibility to test stuff without having to search for testers (which is really awkward when you just want to do some quick tests and every time have to find someone first instead of just hosting something quick, waiting for someone to join, test and get the results directly).

Personally, this sort of modding is what held me in Titan Quest and will hold me in Grim Dawn if this possibility will stay.

yea i see the problem then. with out going into the how’s of the server “infecting” the clients game files. This seems like a manditory means unless you have a means of flagging games that are modded.

So for now i understand why this needs to be closed up until the functionality can be restored with better support ?

I’m not sure because it’s possible to be a dick by other means that we should not remove one of the ways to do so.

That said, we tried several mods that use the main camapaign world (Cornucopia, Grimmest, Arcachnophobia) and hosted them via Custom Game. We then had a client that did not have the mods installed try to join.

The client was able to join and play without issue as far as we could tell, while the host continued to have customized game data on their end. Does this not essentially fulfill all of your requirements (except through Custom Game instead of the Main Campaign)?

considered adding it as a developer mode / flag ?

If the answer to this is obvious, I apologise up front.

Is this update going to impact on Grim Dawg’s Good Looking Mod? The player runs Good Looking Mod as a Custom Game.