More Noob Questions, multiplayer centric

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
1

Hi everyone!

I may need to split this into 2 topics.

I’ve recently (few days, only lvl 25) started playing Grim Dawn with my partner, and I’m one of those people who want to plan and know everything before doing it (Is why as lovely and complex as POE is, it’s too much for me to research before getting into it and it bugs me).

SO!
I’ve decided I like 1H1H nightblade, and have currently paired it with soldier for more WPS, and flat phys and piercing buffs, in an attempt to get the highest single target DPS I can.
My partner has gone with a 2H Shaman Demo to get better AOE and some buffs for us.
If my other friend joins, they’ll likely be going a ranged spellscaster who will be as glass cannon as you can get, assuming we can maintian agro well enough.

With that in mind:

I’ve been searching and reading for hours, but cannot find a simple (or even complex but all in the same place) breakdown of damage calculation.
Nowhere I’ve seen explains where multiplication bonuses are additive and where they’re multplicitive, and where conversion weaves into it. Some places have said multiple conversion can happen, some have said it can’t. Going off everything I’ve read so far, I’ve made a best guess so far as follows.
I get that there’s steps (Weapon -> Skill -> Equipment -> Passive/Buffs), so to my understanding:

  1. Weapon damage + any flat unassociated damage
  2. Skill using weapon damage, or basic attack replacer, etc.
    -Augmentations / Transmutation skills for said skill, are applied additively
    2a) Damage multipliers on said skill.
    2b) Conversion on skills
    2b) Addition of any flat on said skill.
  3. Equipment
    3a) Damage Multipliers
    3b) Conversion
    3c) Addition of flat
  4. Passive Skills / Buffs
    4a) Damage Multipliers
    4b) Conversion
    4c) Addition of flat

Where all bonuses in each step are additive, but then multiplicitive between steps.
So if you had a +20% skill and a +40% skill (buffs/passives), then it would be a +60% for that step.

However, that’s just a guess.
Are passive skills and buffs different steps?

On another note - with multiplayer in mind, am I right to be going with a blademaster over a trickster for highest single target DPS, ignoring the need for AOE, and having lifesteal and small survivability bonuses also provided by teammates?
In trying to crunch numbers, I picked eventually becoming a pierce blademaster because it seems to have the highest cumulative bonuses to weapon damage once it’s all added up. Coming from Diablo where weapon damage is king (and there’s an abundance of + phyiscal damage), and flat elemental damage bonuses are nice but not the star.
Looking at some end game builds however, it seems that weapons aren’t that strong, and maybe with a WPS build that thrives on pumping out as many hits as possible (multiple hits per proc), a trickster’s added lightning damage might add up fast and end up way out shining weapon damage?
(Excluding items, just looking at skills, a blademaster can do maybe 3-5x physical wepon damage a hit, plus more WPS to bring the pool to 100%, with some single hands of WPS hits (WPS still goes off but one hit of it) replaced with cadence) - compared to only 2.8x max with storm touched, primal bond, and savegery on a trickster.)

I didn’t want to also be aiming for Shaman gear though, as I’d rather us not be competing for similar gear. But if that won’t be an issue, and the lightning damage more than makes up for the half weapon damage (or if it’s easy enough to find weapons that deal pure lightning damage that get run through all the multipliers), I can start a trickster and we can stack our lightning damage together :slight_smile:

2

Welcome to the forum. :slightly_smiling_face:

Did you have a read of the Game Guide?

https://www.grimdawn.com/guide/gameplay/combat/

3

Hi Medea_fleecestealer,

Thank you for the welcome :slight_smile:
I have indded read the Game Guide. It describes and provides examples of what modifiers and conversion does, but does not provide any information on how different forms stack with one another.

Thanks for the link though :smiley:

4

not entirely sure what the “specific” question is, or my head is just too foggy to discern/needs more coffee

anyways lets try see if i get this right (someone please correct me where/if i’m wrong :grimacing:)

as far as multiplayer goes, everything “separate source” stacks, same source highest effect applies, ex if you were 2 tricksters using Mog buff or Rend devotion, the highest bonus effect would apply, the other would be wasted

as far as dmg breakdown goes, it should be fairly simple,
and yes multiple conversion can happen, but only at the same time/step, not after because even if multiple conversion can happen “at once” conversion can only happen one time.
That means if you have a transmuter conversion (on skill/on item) you can have multiple conversion happening at step 1, and it would be equally applied/divided out in their corresponding proportions, ex Vire’s Might transmuters applied on skill or from multiple item pieces
^global/any conversion “afterwards” would then not apply.
If you don’t have transmuter conversion, but ex multiple global conversion/buff conversion, they still all apply just in different proportions.
Ex you have 50% global pierce to elemental conversion, and 50 global elemental to pierce conversion. That means means each happens at the same time, but from your preexisting base dmg. So if you had 100 flat pierce dmg, XY source, and 100 flat ele dmg XY source, you’d end up with 100 flat pierce and 100 flat ele. If ex you had Blades of Wrath, 50% of that would be ele, and no other conversion would affect that(for arguments sake we ignore %WD effect) - and only ex any ele devotions would get converted into pierce (unlikely on a pierce devo map)
^also super important to note that Armor Piercing conversion (not true Phys->pierce conversion which only exist on modifiers/transmutors) happens last in any conversion step. That means if you have 100 armor piercing ratio, ie 100%phys->pierce conversion, but you have 15% physical damage converted to Ele, ex affix on weapon or necklace, then those that phys->ele conversion would always happen before/take prio over Armor Piercing conversion
likewise you have “layered” conversion, where Elemental conversion always comes before “direct” conversion for Fire/Cold/lightning. that means 50% elemental converted into pierce and 50% lightnign converted into pierce, does not = 100% conversion, because lightning happens after ele and from the "new 100% source"remaining pool.

as far as direct dmg breakdowns, everything is additive, and only Total Dmg (ex on transmutors) or Racial dmg or %WD is multiplicative and… feel like i’m forgetting one :thinking:
and dmg % or flat on a skill happens before anything else, incl transmutor,
only thing not affected by transmutors are secondary effects, but those would still be individually affected by the other additive/multiplicative rules of other bonus stats/effects
and i think the only special circumstance outside of the regular things applicable above, incl wps, is Upheaval, which is not a regular WPS, and doesn’t replace your auto attack but “modifies” it you will.
Was long thought that Upheaval replaced regular auto attack thus was a dmg loss specially compared to wps, but turns out it’s a modifier that buffs it. - Still suffers from not being categorized as a WPS tho, so in terms of roll/% activation it will still follow the old rule of coming last, ie if you have 100% wps you can’t trigger upheaval, because wps rolls first even on a crit

5

Thanks Gnomish_Inquisition.
That’s a bunch of useful information.

So, I’m still confused about the order of damage calculation and conversion.
If I have 50phys and 20 fire damage and 10 lightning damage on a weapon, and I have a weapon modifier that says +50% to lightning damage, and a passive that says +10% to fire damage, and a passive that is 20% physical damage to lightning damage. What is the resulting damage?
Is it all converted first? So 40 phys, 20 lightning, 20 fire. Then increases -> 40 phys, 30 lightning, 22 fire.

Or is it modified first, then converted?
Or are there steps like described before?
And in that case, what are the steps, and in each step, what applies in what order between conversion, flat modification, and % modification?

Thanks heaps :slight_smile:

6

%dmg is never converted outside of a skill, and is never added unless directly on a modifier(and aside from modifiers to buff skills i don’t think i’ve seen %dmg modifiers), and then it’s separate

ex https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/2775 image
25-47 physical dmg - 50 base armor pierce ratio; will never display otherwise/“influenced” by other stats as it’s the base stats
4-6 flat damage, added to your global flat pool, but is weapon//“hand” specific, and will display ingame already with your global %dmg added
+22-32%dmg, this is added to your global pool, and will automatically apply any display changes where applicable
x
x
x
modifier territory: as i understand it
the 18% WD is added straight to your skill, this case AQC, and is an “unmodified” straight addition, ie you take your weapon pool dmg, character page 2 top box, and it gets applied as is as if it were straight damage/adding flat dmg to the skill, just depending on your weapon dmg pool(which can vary especially where auto attack replacer buffs are concerned)
^someone please correct me on this if i’m totally off the mark, tho that’s how i understand it
the 50 piercing (base value at XYZ slicer/item lvl interval) will always display as raw stat/value unaffected by dmg bonuses, but will apply additively “straight” to the skill and ofc take bonus from your dmg bonuses % or otherwise. - and as i understand it item modifier raw flat dmg is applied last/after any inherent skill bonuses
^again someone please correct me if i’m wrong

now in your specific case we have
3 types of flat dmg
20% phys converted to lightning
+10% fire dmg
modifier to X +50% lightning dmg
^notice how i write this.
first, the important factor “would” be the modifier, except no such modifier exists, that wouldn’t be a buff modifier ie just apply global, like any %dmg, and thus apply last/after any conversion

so the end would be 40phys dmg, 22 fire dmg, 20 lightning dmg, 30depending on if you had the buff skill for the lightning modifier

flat on a skill or an item is always “before” conversion, flat dmg in character sheet page 2 scrolled down to XYZ dmg is after conversion
and this is regardless of conversion step. Flat damage is always converted, then global % is added, and a skill is always applied in full before conversion of any sorts, since skill nodes, aside from secondary effects, appear before any outside bonuses or effects.
Likewise with the ex above with the slicer, if for argument sake that you had piercing converted into X, say acid either global or via Nidalla´s Hidden Hand, then the raw flat/“base” piercing will be added to the skill, and then naturally converted like any other piercing would - and that portion of converted dmg could then never be converted again, and would ofc in the end benefit from +%acid dmg, and nowhere in the chain have benefited from global %pierce dmg

so, conversion happens once, regardless of step in the chain, but multiple conversion can happen at the same step, but no conversion can happen again after. In any and all cases of conversion flat dmg is converted first, global %dmg is never converted, and it’s the final converted dmg type that dictates what type of %dmg boosts the dmg, ie piercing converted to acid benefits solely from global %acid dmg
only time %dmg is “converted” is when a skill is transmuted, because everything on the skill happens before anything else - and “transmuter”/conversion modifier on item is = to transmuter on skill in terms of step/priority

https://www.grimdawn.com/guide/gameplay/combat/#q21

The order of events for Conversion is as follows: Base Skill > Skill Modifiers > Conversion on the Skill or Transmuter > Conversion on Equipment and Buffs > Equipment, Auras and Passives

=

  1. Base Skill (ex Righteous Fervor)
  2. ^>Skill Modifiers (ex Retribution node or Servitors Cleaver item)
  3. ^>Conversion on the Skill or Transmuter (ex Dreeg's Reproach)
  4. ^>Conversion on Equipment and Buffs (ex any damage not affected by Dreeg's Reproach, like external flat dmg not phys/fire - which then gets converted from XYZ global conversion)
  5. ^> Equipment, Auras and Passives (final damage bonuses/%sources is then applied)
    • end

so (a basic) damage calculation would be, (weapon dmg+flat dmg)+"skill"~conversion+%dmg+multipliers
^always keeping in mind the flat values displayed on items you pick up, or ex in devotion screen will already have auto applied/effect of your conversion and %bonus dmg - and only base values, like ex white weapon dmg or raw flat modifiers on items wont show appearance of that

and as a final, "heck why not confuse you as much as we can"note, always keep in mind that only skills or attack using weapon damage or %weapon damage benefits from global flat dmg, ex Devouring Swarm won’t benefit from any flat dmg source that isn’t a direct modifier on item, or unless you get an item with skill modifier that adds %WD.
^and then keeping in mind that flat dmg, and other certain flat stats like lifesteal, on weapons are weapon/hand specific - likewise with the components/upgrades you attach to the weapons/“hand”
ex being if you use Vicious Spike component on your Dermapteran slicer, but you only have 1 component, you attach it to “right hand”/main hand, only that hand, and weapon attacks/skills using that hand will apply the flat dmg from the component (base value +4piercing). - the buff “impaling weapons” the component affords, is global, and applies to all weapon attacks.
reasons this bear mention is ex with lifesteal it’s highly important where the “location” is. Like if you are using a shield, but not using any shield attacks, but you have put Seal of Blades in the shield, you wont benefit from the lifesteal without using attack that uses shield dmg. Likewise if you use skills that uses offhand, ex Amarastas blade burst or phantasmal blades, you wont benefit from the +flat dmg or lifesteal on your righthand/main hand weapon (and vice versa with attacks/skills using mainhand only)
Luckily there aren’t super many of those skills that distinguish between your hands but they do exist so worth to mention i guess.
-same with armor piercing ratio on weapons, it’s hand specific, so having 100% armor piercing on 1 hand doesn’t confer phys->piercing conversion on your opposite hand. You will however “globablly” convert any phys damage on a skill/effect, according to your armor piercing ratio, as long as the skill has %WD on it. ex being Cadence skill, Doom relic or blind fury devotion. Ex grenado wont because no %wd