On Mutators

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@Ceno

Only have positive player-affecting mutators in the pool

this part i don’t agree with
i think a few of the enemy mutators are actually interesting, and i’d suspect could be made even more interesting
the main “interesting” enemy mutator is the +25% cdr, it really affects some encounters a decent deal/some more than others, while never being a “drag” like the regular +resistant mutator or -player speed mutators
and while “niche”, other mutators that are not totally inconsequential but can put a build in the “dicey” territory/“i’ll still voluntarily engage with this threat” is the crit or oa? mutator that can put a build back in the potential RNG range of ohko - which i personally think is fine, and don’t mind that extra "sweat"bonus

that’s not to say the mutator system as a whole is “good”, or that the few (imo) ok enemy affecting mutators redeems the system as a whole
but i think it means there can be room to play with it and “fix” it/improve upon it and make it more engaging even if it’s also just from a basic passive stat addition

@Ceno

perhaps they gain ten levels per mutator

i legit don’t see how this is either an improvement, more engaging nor in essence “any different” than how the mutators “technically” already operates; level scaling is just a basic stat increase to dmg, oa/da and health
moreover it also basically “as is” just equates to playing higher levels of SR (crucible not applicable since it has an actual cap)

now, do i have any ideas “other than that”, to fix it, no, not really, because i wouldn’t really know where to begin (or what’s actually possible), and i tend to blank out on (creativity) ideas since i focus on the wrong stuff
someone on the discord suggested to make mutators selectable, using poe map? system as comparison.
If that was doable i think better enemy engaging factors could be implemented instead of just basic +10-50 enemy “raw stat scaling”, that then also was “big” in impact while not being an RNG element as ex some other (smaller) mutators could be (ex the CDR or Crit mutators could remain as passives, or the level scaling idea)
random “pull stuff out my butt” example could be the voluntary optional mutator could increase/double/triple boss or nemesis spawns, spawn Shattered version of bosses, give enemies free range of their skills so they weren’t limited to only using X at one distance only triggering Y skill at another distance, spawn Lokars or Bourbons or “light Celestials” ?

If optional/voluntary stuff like that isn’t doable i’d just suggest looking at what mutators or “passive” stuff could either be engaging, ex the CDR, or be a threat/challenge layer without actually “bothering” builds (aka resist or minus speed mutator) or just be “ignored” because meaningless like +retal or enemy minus DA? mutator
ex currently retal only affects melee builds so just dialing up retal mutator wouldn’t really affect casters while potentially then “annoying” melee more, a switchup could be to make it a like a retalitory effect ala spectral wrath so no matter the attack used/build, you’d get an extra dmg threat
(and yes i get that it could be potentially still just be built around/“build more tanky” and a “no big deal” at best or become a “bother” at worst - it’s merely to sorta try illustrate some level of uniformity than RNG reset run and more “significant” type of engagement)

i don’t know what the current mutator system/mechanic/“engine” allows, but it dont’ think it’s all bad even in its current state. Room for improvement, and if “total”/mechanical overhaul is possible it would be cool too
and even if just placebo some players do seem to enjoy the concept when entering dangerous domains, even if it might just be at first and decide to ignore the system later - or never get to reach the point to treat it with the same disregard as seasoned players

[Shadowpast]

Threads like this show that polish > any new content.

From PB type skills and their change request

Mutators change

Crafting

MI farming

QoL

Etc, etc.

@El3an0r_R1gby you may be okay with 10-12 min SR runs. Frankly I don’t care how long as long as they’re fun. However the rest of the GD forum dwelling folks (this is an IMO, likely a shit hot take to most) have pushed for these fast runs and at the same time don’t want the game to be zoom zoom. Makes no sense.

Not trying to start a fight. But this is cemented in as, for example, the CR times have only gotten quicker. There is the SR DoT meta too.

As for the topic, they do little. The mutator that adds res to mobs that counter your damage type slow the game down but not in a meaningful way. In reality you could just inflate the mobs hp pool for the same effect.

For those who push SR they likely have already built to survive high SR, load into it, and ignore whatever mutators are there and instead rely on their knowledge of their build and what the mobs do…or at least that is what I do.

[Maya]

@Shadowpast

For those who push SR they likely have already built to survive high SR, load into it, and ignore whatever mutators are there and instead rely on their knowledge of their build and what the mobs do

I don’t ignore mutators and there are a few that will make me restart. But I do admit that mutators play a small role compared to everything else.

[romanN1]

Depends what you consider small. I can shoe you a difference of a whole minute in crucible, and 3 minutes in SR on the good vs bad mutators case.

[Maya]

@romanN1

Depends what you consider small. I can shoe you a difference of a whole minute in crucible, and 3 minutes in SR on the good vs bad mutators case.

Small as in, compared to “Reaper or small map in SR 140”.

I am not a speedrunner, so time is irrelevant to me as long as I can beat the timer in SR 75-76 and get my tokens back in Cruci.

[Serious_Stan]

For me muators are ignored for the most.

During leveling - normal,elite ones are too weak to bother checking what rolled. On ultimate i might glace for tge poison damage one.
I would probably check them if do a level 1 ultimate start.

Playing hardcore - i would check them in SR. But i stick to SC for the majority

SC - ignored in SR and dungeons. I will check them in SR if a character is out of his dept. E.g comfortable on 65, but attempting 75.

Crate fight is the only time i have actively checked them and reset.
Even OFF mageslayer for me was not that impacted by the CC mutator iirc.

Besides crate, pushing the Cr timer or deep SR i dont see them that impactfull.

Sidenote:
Technically, you can make it so that muators are static till you manage to beat the SR level

In regards to potential changes i would like either for them to alter the gameplay via adding skills or pulling a Hades and letting the player choose their own poison. Otherwise do not touch.

In the case where the player can choose, it can probably be similar to curses in TQ, but only active in the forbidden domains. Then each mutator can increase/decrease rewards depending if it negative/positive.

In the case where it is active skills, well for a start it sound rather complicated and on the not happening side. But if it were to happen we are in for fun time or frustrating if there are alot of on death effects .

An alternative that somewhat accomplishes the same result is to have proxies for which the spawn pool is determined by the mutators. Now we kill several birds with 1 stone.

• Adding potentially great enemy diversity in areas
• the unexpected skill will actually be regular mob skills, so less need to modify the engine
• increased rewards will be tied to defeating said monsters
• will break monotony when running dungeons and the like, by making the player more aware of what spawns rather than rushing the end target. During campaign this could be memerable encounters.

Offtopic: The above part actually sounds pretty good, class mutators might be making a return in the league

[mqstout]

Increasing mutators is something only das uberplayers would want. The game is already getting increasingly more challenging lately.

And bumping mutators much would lead to awful situations like the fire one rolling in a super fire area making it “well, let’s quit and restart the game” (like used to happen in FG when the fire+healing minibossess would spawn together).

[Ceno]

@mqstout

The game is already getting increasingly more challenging lately.

The game has only been getting easier as of late, though the next patch will allegedly change that quite significantly.

@mqstout

And bumping mutators much would lead to awful situations like the fire one rolling in a super fire area making it “well, let’s quit and restart the game”

I think you did not read the first post.

[mqstout]

I read it. Player-buff mutators would result in the baseline difficulty being boosted, leading to the game being harder overall. And weird situations where an area with mutators might become too important for a particular area. Same situation, just reversed. “This area is too hard, unless you get the Chain Lightning mutator.”

IMO, mutators should be mostly invisible as they are. They only nudge an added hint of variation. They should never come to the forefront and have to be paid attention to.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@Serious_Stan

Crate fight

depending on build or “when” you engage lokar, they can have a massive impact on that fight too, if you’re not building default overly tanky or attempt him “early” in a build stage

@mqstout

I read it. Player-buff mutators would result in the baseline difficulty being boosted

not really
if you read the OP, you’d noticed Ceno suggested only player positive buff mutators would be a thing (not the negative ones we have currently), and to compensate it would be a simple increase existing enemy spawns
which is not really the same difficulty increase as now, since it just means more of the same (weak?) enemies to kill just slightly higher passive statted in terms of hp OA/DA dmg (whcih doesn’t really scale that high for monsters “per level”)

@mqstout

“This area is too hard, unless you get the Chain Lightning mutator.”

so it’s not the same “rng”/“run into area have to restart”, because it would a uniform “scaling” increase if you will, like going from normal to elite, minus the player penalty ofc
since it would affect no build more skewed than others since it’s a (small) linear stat increase, so no RNG element, and no “real” difficulty increase element(imo, which is why i was against it)
^what makes stuff harder isn’t really their level scaling, (unless it’s “huge”), it’s the various different bonus background boosters they get, SR background scaling obv being the most easy one to see where even Ultimate MC enemies are trivial compared to same level encounter in XY shard on SR, or SR 75-76 Normal vs 75-76 Ultimate
Likewise we’re already messing around with enemies 15 levels higher than us (sometimes) during levelling, without sweating, so slapping on another 35 for an end build would likely not have that “big deal” effect, in terms of scaling nor challenge; which then makes it redundant (imo) and not really a counter balance to a potential player positive buff mutator
ie a simply enemy levels increase does not equate to the same “full stop” (nor RNG) element of some current mutators have for builds where their speed gets cut below playable, or enemy resist is increased so much it’s a dmg counter etc etc “whatever XY area makes me reset”