Pathfinder: Kingmaker review

Off Topic What Else Are You Playing?
1

I thought I do would do a review of this game, it does contain some spoilers.

For those that don’'t know, Pathfinder kingdoms has been recently released. the game is based on the ruleset / books of the same name. Which in turn is heavily modified from the Dungeons and dragons 3.5 ruleset. If you are familiar with Neverwinter nights (D&D Editor 3 ruleset) you should be familiar with some of the game, classes, races and feats. etc

The computer game is RTwP, same as the BG series.

Now on first look, the game offers a large open world to explore, once you done act 1, you move onto the main part of the game, to build and maintain a kingdom.

If the game worked, this should have been pretty good, and the world map looks large enough to explore.

HOWEVER!!!

As much as I want to give this game a positive review, I can not.

While the early part of the game has been beta tested, later parts of it clearly hasn’t. Also some testers have said, that feedback was ignored, or too many bugs were reported and the devs pushed on with the release.

Once you start to peel the surface of the game, you can start to see the cracks.

The character generator is buggy, try and create a cleric, and the deity and domain screen bugs out, as the sections of domains and deities goes blank. Weapons focus feat is also buggy. Also some of the feats (which give classes extra abilities) are broken.

Also on release, the enemies have inflated stats, (making them near impossible to kill) and this was on normal, on challenge mode and unfair mode, the stats are inflated even more.

So the devs released a statement about this, and tried to address some of the balancing in the first patch, which ended up breaking the ability to hire custom mercs. They didn’t fix this in patch 2, (a day later) but on patch 3.

However, none of those patches really fix a lopt of the underling issues with the game.

There are some gamebreaking bugs, Act 3 and certainly on act 4. (confirmed) the kingdom management is poorly done, while you can set this to auto, it seems to be handled with dice rolls, so while it can help to keep you town going, there are also reports, it can make your kingdom fail for no reason.

Thjere are other issues with the game, Tooltips and the tutorial do a poor job of explaining the game. especailly if you are new the the pathfinder rules.

While the devs seem to be trying to fix the game, so far, (next major patch will be out end of next week) But sadly, the game was rushed, poorly tested, its clear they didn’t test the later parts of the game. some important features are missing in the game, like sorceress not able to unlearn spells. There is no respec option (and it exists in the rules) and that would have helped to correct the major flaws in the pre made companions, (and many of them aren’t that great)

I tried to like it, but in its current state, its very hard to like, combat is flawed, the party AI is basic and useless in a few cases, so best to play with the AI off) There are a lot of placeholder images in the CC screens. plenty of bugs, including some gamebreakers.

Maybe in 6 months to a year or 2, this game might be worth playing. I won’t bore you with the other issues, like the annoying encumbrance system, or the annoying rations that weigh far more then they should.

For an open world game, you really can’t go that far, especailly with a kingdom.

So all in all, there is a good game screaming to come out, a good game that may surpass the likes of BG and IWD series. BUT its ruined by an inexperienced dev team that bitten off more then they could chew.
If only the studio (Owlcat Games) did a smaller project, built up the rules, and the smaller game, then shifted onto something a lot bigger like Kingmaker.

But sadly, this is also the fate of a few KS funded titles as well, like Frontiers, and Limit theory (as that has now come to the end and no game) or some projects not really delivering what they promised.

P:K needed at least another year or 2 in development. and some time testing it.

So if you do decide to pick up the game, be aware that, by the time you do start to notice issues, you won’t be able to refund it. and sadly, I wish I never did buy this game. so I’m stuck with a broken mess and hope that the devs see it through to the end to fix it.

One final point, which I have left to the end,

the game is littered with time limits.

Act 1 has a time limit of 90 days to kill the boss. but some have failed the time limit and its game over.

Act 2 has several time limits concerning quests.

Act 3 also has time limited quests

Act 4 more time limited quests (until you hit one of the confirmed gamebreaker bugs that is)

I personally dislike time limited quests, its not a good idea, I know there been a few games that do have them, Fallout 1, BG and 2, but in the latter, it was fairly easy to workound the time limits. But not so in P:K. I just hope that the devs remove the limit limits or extend them. The problem is, there is a large world to explore, but you can’t, its like walking with a heavy ball and chain on your ankle. you just can’t go very fall.

so in its current state, my review score must reflect that.

6/10

Final thoughts.

IF the game is fixed, and is playable, I will probably change my score. I want to like it, but not in it’s current state. But there are other flaws in the game, that can’t be fixed, and that will effect the state of the game. Give the game a year or two, then come back to it.

Going to wait on this myself, and see how it turns out.

2

Thank you for sharing. This game was on my radar for a while. It’s a shame it’s in bad shape. I guess 1 year development between KS and the release was far too short (although the game was already in development before the KS campaign).

I read somewhere that you can only pick the lock of chests once. If you fail, you have to retry after you level up. I fell off my chair when I read this. Is it true?

3

I feel sory for devs. The game is not that bad, but bugs make it nearly unplayable. >> Writing was okaysh for most part.
The worst thing was load time, it take few minutes to load every location, extremely annoying if you cont how often you need to safe/load due to awesome enemy balance >>

4

Yes it is, Then again, I don’t think the devs raised a huge amount of cash either, so they went for a rulebook that was too large to put into a computer game.

Plus I head there is a 5 year timer in the game, not sure if that is for the whole game or not, I don’t know.

But exploring is a pain, so many bugs, so much cut content, as the kingdom management is a mess. while you can switch this to auto, and let the computer handle things, it seems to be based on dice rolls, so one event, success, another event, fail, another event success, kingdom destroyed.

Plus there is little feedback on why the kingdom gets destroyed.

The game is at most a mid beta, or early, with a lot of stuff not working or not in. what does work, isn’t bad, but its just bogged down by poor decision making by the devs.

its possible that Deep Silver might have forced the game out, or the devs ran out of money and was forced to release it. But from what I read, some testers tried to bring a lot of issues up with the devs, (the real time combat VS turn based) and other issues, but was shot down by fanboys who didn’t want to hear it. So now, as one former tester said, "we are living in a bad dream. "

I think the devs should have started with something far smaller, get the basics in, and build upon that. But the devs are clearly inexperienced, and for a game of this scale, they simply couldn’t manage it. which the begs the question? why do a KS to begin with?

But sadly, this has been the case for few KS funded games, either abandoned, not finished, or just broken messes. only a few really shine, including GD. But many don’t.

So yeah, the game needs some massive rebalancing, and while its easy to be told, (get good) or turn down the difficulty) the issue is, those that look into the combat mechanics quickly realise that the enemies have inflated stas, (regardless of difficulty) so turning down the difficulty isn’t really an option) (but gets worse with higher difficulties when you are facing enemies with AC 27 plus (armour class) when the enemy should only have AC 17.

So to hit an enemy which such high stats, you need to do a lot of saving and loading, or get extremely llucky with the dice rolls. But that is the other problem some people have found out, the game isn’t fully using the PF rules. as the dice rolls are nearly always to the enemies favour. plus on top the flawed combat.

So it has some deep rotten combat mechanics that will never get fixed.

But the fanboys will love this game, but if you like a good CRPG, I would skip this for another year, and hope the devs make it better. too many problems, and bugs to give this a good score.

edit
@Ptirodaktill
I would only feel sorry for the devs if they did try their best, and if the game wasn’t in such a mess. but to release it in this state, simply isn’t acceptable. I realise they probably must have run out of money, but like I said, they should have worked on something smaller, get the basics down, the combat mechanics, monsters etc. have a game in place, which works before asking for more money for something bigger.

They failed on so many levels, to make a decent game. its just no were near finished.

edit 2
A user on Reddit has looked through some of the source code, and has come to the concussion that for the custom difficulty options, (I forgot top mention that) two of the difficulty options do not work as they shoud

which is why some of the enemies are getting inflated stats even on normal

worth a read. Just hope that the devs see that post and major farther adjustments. as normal should be close to the core rules.

5

Ugh, time limits, those are a hard no for me. I like to take my time with games, explore everywhere, do silly things. Time limits annoy me because I can’t stop to smell the flowers, which is the best part about (especially open world) games for me.

6

I have to agree the combat is shit and they need to spend a lot of time here tightening it up. As it is now it’s a confusing, unresponsive mess. Same goes for creating a character that isn’t “premade”.

There’s a great game in there somewhere I think but the question is are they going to put in the work to fix it and see it thru? It shouldn’t have been released and I have no idea of their history but if I had to guess they perhaps were relying only on their KS funds and were running out maybe? This wasn’t in Steam EA was it? Bad move on their part if not.

7

I didn’t follow this one too much but i have a general rant. I loved the “classics” back in the past - baldurs, icewind i’ve been everywhere but today this attempts to bring revised version of infinity engine back ( or something similar) are kinda lame. I tried poe and tyranny and hated both, bad combat, silly xp/explorations mechanics. Also i’ve read in this particular one there is romance, well : Nobody needs romance in his crpg ( yeah they call em like that today) someone will understand it one day. It just sux.

8

Appreciate the review - I’d been looking at it, but I’m too much of an explore and check out everything guy to enjoy time limits on my quests. Hard pass for me.

9

The game was in closed beta, but I think that only applied to those that hit the correct tiers. Which meant a lot of fanboys who wanted to igmore the problems, and only a few that tried to make a difference but got shot down and one even banned.

Also the beta only covered the tutorial and a bit more, (can’t remember) but as the game has four acts, and the later acts, / kingdom management is just a mess. plus the later gamebreakers. So it clearly wasn’t tested.

Then again, (just checked the KS page) the game only raised $909,057, which isn’t much at all. They should have canned the KS, especailly when they wanted to do so much, and the module / book that the game is based on, is suppose to be the largest one. so the most freedom.

So to make a game with that, I know why the game is in a mess.
So yeah, it should haver been in early access, but I think this is a new dev team, so very inexperienced. Which doesn’t help if you are going to port one of the most complete rulebooks, (and D&D3.5 is also very complex) and PF is more modded. So yeah, I think they should have canned the KS, they should have said, this won’t be enough to make a good game. So yeah, explains a lot, and explains why the game is so messy.

So its mixed reviews are warranted. Like I said, there will be those that will enjoy it, and I did for the first few hours, but after a while, I began to see the cracks, and now that some people are going through the source code, its clear that the code is messy. and not up to any decent standard.

All in all, poor game. and yes, I really wonder if the devs are commited to this, they have 3 DLC planned, but I hope, they fix the bugs first, before putting stuff under paywalls. I’m just glad I got the basic edition, had I paid more, I would have been furious.

10

Well they seem to have made a good amount of money from the Kickstarter - over $920,000. I see there was both alpha and beta testing done via Steam. Guess they didn’t go down the also available to buy route that Crate took to generate more sales. :undecided:

Still, might be some good news on the horizon. This out today.

11

but the problem is, its not enough for a game like this, besides, there is KS cut, and other costs. I think they did allow paypal after that. so not sure on the final amount. But still, its not really enough, and considering the game is in dire shape, explains a lot. And like I said, the testing only effected the first act. when there are 4. And beyond act 1, act 2 and above, is just a mess.

While its sad that someone steps down to ill health, it may also bring a different direction. but I guess we have to wait and see.

They seem so far commuted, but my worry is, how long will that last? how long before they move on or close their doors due to problems? and the long list of KS failures proves my point. so if this adds to that pile, depends squarely on the devs shoulders.

12

it is almost twice what GD raised (537,515), just for comparison.

How far that gets you really depends on a lot of things though (e.g. licensing costs, developer skills, location / salaries, do you use an engine you are familiar with or have to create your own, …)

They should have canned the KS, especailly when they wanted to do so much

for that they would have had to recognize that the amount was too low from have asked for more right from the very start. The first stretch goal was at $550K, so I assume the initial goal was $500K. So at least in theory $900K should easily get you there if your original estimate was any good (which it clearly was not).

All in all, poor game. and yes, I really wonder if the devs are commited to this, they have 3 DLC planned, but I hope, they fix the bugs first, before putting stuff under paywalls.

if they are smart they do that, otherwise there is a very limited audience / interest in their DLC anyway

13

The problem with that argument is, while GD did raise less, but the devs already had the source code for the engine, and was familiar with it.

PF uses the unity engine, and compared to the original pillers, that raised over $3,986,929 on KS alone.

If you not played this PF:KM Mamba, then I can speak from experience, that a lot of stuff is missing, there is a lot of code that isn’t working correctly, and features from it getting cut. They had to do the game from the ground up, (sure you can say the same for GD, but that also had part time help, and quickly expanded to a large pool of people, many of them familar with the engine that GD uses. Compared to an inexperienced dev team that aimed way too high, choose the wrong PF book to do, clearly wanted to add in a lot of features, but was cut out. Also, GD went onto early access and testers first, and those that bought it later, had access to the chapters when they were ready.

unlike PF, when the alpha and beta was only for act 1. leaving a lot of the content not tested. and hence the problems now.

Sure, the amount looks like a lot, but when your building from the ground up, and a complex rule system, monsters, etc, that money won’t be enough, also not sure how many devs work at that studio, I see if its possible to check. compared to GD, which started off with 2, and outside / part time help. then grow, the money, that GD got, plus early access, lasted a lot longer.

edit

I guess you can’t call them inexperienced? but still puzzling why they released this game in such a state?

14

Yes they have to work really hard now to fix existing problems, not just to deliver a proper product but also to save their reputation. The window to do the latter is closing fast and getting rid of such a reputation, well, good luck with that.

The most used engine in gaming today, or damn close to it. How to work with it is not exactly a secret is it?

15

In that case, why did they release a broken product? many feats aren’t working, broken character creations, the list goes on. while one of the dev team seems to be familiar with the unity engine, how can they if they release a game that is so bug ridden?

16

Well, Medierra was familiar with it. Took Zantai a little while to get the hang of it back in June 2012. :wink:

http://grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4114

None of the Iron Lore developers joined the team until April 2013 and later.

17

I was mainly about Rhis and med, and some part timers (part time animator who did a bit, but had to be replaced, because he was already working in another studio if I remember) (and a few others) ) who where familiar with the engine. so that did make a difference. and yes, it took time for the team to grow, I guess I could have reworded that a bit better. But it still started with 2, and some part time help, before it grow.

18

The obvious answer is they were out of money. I’ve seen it happen before and one of the best examples, sadly sitting in my steam library still, was Sword of the Stars 2. Quite a few years ago, but the exact same situation, ludicrously premature release of a broken product because of financial constraints. That studio basically imploded shortly afterwards. When it’s a choice between release a broken product but keep the doors open for another month or go bankrupt, most studios go for the first option.

19

Yes, and sadly, I also seen a fair few KS games go down in flames, or not made at all. in development hell.

Yet the biggest issue is, they released a really badly done product, I’m not sure they will survive? there is a lot of work, and to change stuff at this stage will not be possible. so it will be hard to improve the game.

I think in a year, this studio may end up on the list of studios that have clsed their doors. While the game is in the top selling list on steam, even that might not be enough to keep them going. to fix the game. I can easy see them closing their doors and abandoning the game for good.

20

they had to rework / update / expand part of that engine too, not sure how different that is from starting with Unity and having to add your custom pieces for the RPG rules or how familiar they are.

If you not played this PF:KM Mamba, then I can speak from experience, that a lot of stuff is missing, there is a lot of code that isn’t working correctly, and features from it getting cut.

I have no idea what they were trying to do or how much money beyond the $900K they would have needed. If they had expected to need more, their KS should have asked for that sum however, not 500K, so chances are they got surprised by the amount of work.

They had to do the game from the ground up, (sure you can say the same for GD, but that also had part time help, and quickly expanded to a large pool of people, many of them familar with the engine that GD uses.

if I get double the money on KS, I either also add developers or expect to take longer, as I expect to make the game bigger. Personally, I’d go with ‘take longer’ over ‘add people’ but it might be a mix of both, depending on how many people they were initially.

I would definitely expect them to have / hire people familiar with the engine they are using however, so that is not really an explanation I can accept :wink:

Compared to an inexperienced dev team that aimed way too high, choose the wrong PF book to do, clearly wanted to add in a lot of features, but was cut out. Also, GD went onto early access and testers first, and those that bought it later, had access to the chapters when they were ready.

I assume inexperience contributed a lot to this, including the estimate that in hindsight was probably way too low. Also how the whole thing is structured and whether it goes into EA (I did not follow this, but this thread makes it sound like the later chapters were never made available before, so essentially tested very little).

Oh well, live and learn. As long as they iron out the issues now, I’d not blame them too much, but they probably shot themselves in the foot wrt sales / reviews.