neither am i
i’m saying pet builds are not “dead”, they are “fine in general”
“some” does not = “all”
was never the argument?
it doesn’t?
but can all player builds deal with supers in equal easy fashion? or is some stronger than others, have a harder or simpler time with some supers than others, was a bunch of player builds affected by 1.2 against supers too?
like, “just 5mins” ago you talked with someone telling you they dealt with celestials on their build
what is this argument?
scroll up to point 1 in this reply and see if you catch the drift
i’ll re-quote it:
“normal player builds”; not some outliers
Can all pet builds deal with supers in equal easy fashion? or is some stronger than others, have a harder or simpler time with some supers than others?
Try a Pet Death Knight or Pet Warlock or a Pet Deceiver for example.
If you take the best Pet builds for comparison it is only fair that you compare them with the best non pet builds.
Who?
I believe what you are looking for is “weaker player builds”.
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Sudoku, on the discord
did you see the feedback on the various player builds struggling against ravager too?
or is it just casually getting ignored?
how calla sands is BS, or if you miss an evade, etc
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and I told them that it is irrelevant when player builds can do it faster, safer and lazier.
I mean, we can bring in things like Pet Trickster, Pet Apostate etc into the mix if you wish to go that route.
I will quote myself again as well -
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nop, is not, that’s the point
and i’d argue that since you can kill them on the “best” pet builds, it still counts, even if it’s not your setups or piloting preference style
ok, so pet builds are performing worse than player builds while also being less lazy, but that is ok because pet builds are um… lazy? stronger? something else?
It is not about whether pets can kill supers or not.
It is about whether they can do it with similar efficiency and ease as player builds or not.
Atm, they are performing worse than non pet builds.
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did i say it was “ok” did i argue it was a good or bad change? did i say it was fair they were weaker than the strongest player builds or on par with the avg player build?
did i say that pet builds are not dead?
was never the argument raised here, anywhere
performing worse does not equate to dead, is the point
and people are reacting as if 1.2 killed pet builds, extremely over-dramatic, that’s the fire to quench not fan
so… what are you saying then?
was always everyone else’s arguments for whether the changes were fine or not
and why do pet builds need to be “dead” for people to raise their concerns?
As for what counts as over-dramatic, that depends on the person. I would consider the reactions par for course for a significant nerf to an entire playstyle.
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that’s the point, they are not dead, but people(OP) are acting like they are
it’s not merely concerns being raised but overblown dramatic kneejerk reaction like pet builds are nomore after this update, when they are still here and playable
that’s the difference
Yes, they are not dead.
They just got weakened severely that their breathing is shallow and their pulse is weak.
That causing concern is not overblown. Perhaps you could argue that no one has tested the changes Z made after the initial complaint to the nerfs, but that is on the devs for making significant last minute nerfs without giving the players a chance to test and provide proper feedback on.
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ye they always sneak those last minute 
in
again, i’m not arguing for or against that sht
i’m stating people are freaking way the fck out; specially players that havent’ even played the patch; because pet builds are still existing and playable, even if they got nerfed
“pet builds are not dead” ← and that last part is people’s reaction, which is wrong, and that’s the sole frickin thing i keep pointing out.
Yes, in the same sense Hybrid Pet/Player builds still exist and are not dead.
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So basically just like how 90% of melee and ranged builds feel against celestial bosses? You have DPS windows and you have windows where you need to focus more on not dying, thus lowering your DPS significantly up to 0 in some cases. I don’t see a problem here at all.
Most melee builds play like this to be fair, it’s only a select few that can facetank 24/7.
I agree, it’s ridiculous to expect some kind of “special treatment” for pets compared to non pet builds. Yes there are some non pet builds builds that can kill celestials quickly and while facetanking, but those are either a) a tiny % of builds that arguably also deserve nerfs or b) builds that can perform in that way 1/10 runs in the hands of ridiculously skilled players. If your pets die you resummon them, if you die you have to restart the fight or on HC simply lose the character. Pets have way less risk attached to them and the overall amount of pet builds that can comfortably kill celestials has gone up this patch, not down. Some outliers like beastcaller, etc. that could literally afk Ravager while still having good kill times and where able to solo push SR to ridiculous shard numbers have been rightfully nerfed imo.
Whether the right move was to nerf pets’ survivability or damage in the end is debatable, but I agree with @eardianm when he’s saying that pets should overall still be in a decent spot when it comes to tankyness while overall having a bigger variety of pet builds being able to defeat celestials.
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If we take all possible pet builds, that is true for pets as well.
But what people see is only the performance of the high end ones.
The reason for that is the sheer number of classes, items and builds they allow vs taking only Conjurer, Cabalist and Ritualist into equation.
That is simply not true.
Pet builds rely on pets not just for damage, but also to tank for the player. If your pets die, you are forced to just run for your life while waiting on your cooldowns. That is like getting nulled on player builds, only everything can null you instead of just Arcane mobs.
The builds that can comfortably kill Celestials has gone down massively. But feel free to show otherwise.
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without appearing like i’m switching sides all of a sudden
should probably note the difference in what’s considered “comfortably”
and while (some) pet builds clearly can still kill supers, not all find it comfortable, or atleast way less comfortable like before Maya is not the only one there
^not arguing whether that’s good or wrong or how pets are supped to be vs supers, just pointing out people have different comfort zones, and the barrier for how high/low? that went changed, suddenly, after 6 years
That’s how almost all builds work tho, if e.g. ravager has stage 2 enrage+eye debuff + sunder on you, you have to run in circles until your “being vulnerable” window has closed again. The only builds that are kinda “cheating this system” are giga tanks that have too much damage for how tanky they are (like the paladin or warlord you posted), certain pet builds and some DoT casters. The Witchblade you posted being a tank DoT caster. Earthsplitter never needed to have bonus range + TDM to FW imo.
Not quite the same as getting nulled, more like skill disrupted.
Well, yes. Thus by that logic if there’s as many pet builds as non pet builds that can do all celestials effortlessly, the average pet build power is above the average non pet build power.
I’ll leave that to Eard
That is how most pet builds work too.
Only, the giga tank equivalents are now nerfed.
Do you get Skill disrupted for 10+ seconds?
Not anymore. There are 0 pet builds atm that can do celestials as effortlessly as Player builds.
sure, prove it by taking into consideration all the possible pet combos and builds, like Arcanist, Demo, Soldier, even Nightblade.
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caught that last part for you too