Physical Retal Needs Tons of Further Compensation

Grim Dawn Public Test Discussion
1

Oct 24, 2024.

Hey guys. It’s been a long time. Before we get down to business, I want to show my gratefulness to developers for their effort of trying to make climbing SR easier. Also I’m quite impressed by your 4:00ish “naked” Ex builds and 0:20ish ravager builds. Well done.

Then let’s get to the point. The main argument here is that physical retal builds horribly lacks damage and eagerly need tons of further compensation for the armor-pass-bug fix. I’m gonna reveal some evidence of physical retal being too weak and give some practical suggestions.

First, let’s see how low their damage is:

  1. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Phys RTA RF WL Naked Ex 7:34 (Colossal Fortress version)
    Video: https://youtu.be/xuFfy2pLlnE
    GT Link: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

  2. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Phys RTA RF WL Naked Ex 6:34 (Zolhan’s Revenge Version)
    Video: https://youtu.be/KEqOnht-72s
    GT Link: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

  3. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Phys RTA RF WL Naked Ex 6:30 (The Final Stop Version)
    Video: https://youtu.be/rpRhWf5SknM
    GT Link: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

  4. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Phys RTA RF WL Naked Ex 6:21 (Stoneguard Set + Zolhan’s Revenge)
    Video: https://youtu.be/0D4Qf1Lzb84
    GT Link: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

  5. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Phys RTA DE DK Naked Ex 6:48
    Video: https://youtu.be/1EBWM37Q49M
    GT Link: Death Knight, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

As a contrast:

  1. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Lightning Retal Warder Naked Ex 4:47
    Video: https://youtu.be/VVMg2MF53qg
    GT Link: Warder, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

  2. GD PT v1.2.1.3 (Oct. 16, 2024) Aether RTA DE Defiler Naked Ex 5:10
    Video: https://youtu.be/1j3aQ5yJr0M
    GT Link: Defiler, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

We can see, physical retal builds are now among the weakest end-game builds and have fallen too much behind other retal builds. What’s more, since damage of RtA skills which has % weapon damage part decrease too much, physical retal builds became not tanky enough due to life leech loss.

The reason is, armor-pass-bug fix. I did the mathematics before the fix and I warned at that time. Again, since RtA skills are of very low %, being reduced by armor is very very serious to physical retal damage. I’m not gonna blame anyone this time and I’m not gonna ask for bringing the armor-pass-bug back, but put forward practical suggestions to make some real “Compensation”.

  1. Before v1.2.1.0, physical retal builds don’t have to use Dire Bear devotion but now it is a must. Therefore they have to abandon Messenger of War or Autumn Boar. This means 120% retal damage loss. Please add about 90% all retal damage to Dire Bear devotion.

  2. About Colossal Fortress. It is too weak for physical retal builds at this point, because its retal damage is reduced by armor for twice (three times if there is any ele2phys conversion). Also its modifier to Counter Strike was forgotten. This shield is used by some none-Soldier fire retal builds and Soldier-based physical retal builds, and thus I think it can get some buff of the modifier to Counter Strike.

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  1. About Dread Armor. Its retal damage is also reduced by armor for twice. I suggest either to <merge the two parts into its granted skill and add about 70% retal damage to the armor> or <delete the 213/319 physical retal damage and add 110% retal damage to it (old version of Dread Armor)>. Personally I prefer the former.

  2. Devotion Procs and other missed RtA skills. One day when I was checking RtA devotion procs, I found a very interesting thing:

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This +370% internal Trauma Damage only works on Targo’s Hammer itself (like + % physical damage on Rending Force, which only works on Forcewave). Then I came up with an idea that will help these RtA procs to become useful to physical retal builds again while keep other retal builds little touched——adding some % physical retal damage to these skills. These % physical retal damage only work on the skill themselves. This will help physical retal builds pick their moderate RtA damage back but have very little influence on fire/acid/lightning RtA and so on.

Along with Colossal Fortress. I made an Excel to calculate how much they need to have their former(v1.2.0.5) damage back.

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  1. Colossal Fortress: increase its RtA modifier on Counter Strike to 9% and its CDR on Counter Strike to 0.4s.

  2. Targo’s Hammer (Anvil Devotion): increase its RtA% to 18% and add 400% physical retal damage.

  3. Vire’s Cascade (Honor Relic): increase its RtA% to 25% and add 400% physical retal damage.

  4. Fist of Vire (Vire Devotion): increase its RtA% to 26% and add 400% physical retal damage.

  5. Trample (Autumn Boar Devotion): increase its RtA% to 20% and add 400% physical retal damage.

  6. Retribution (Oathkeeper): add 400% physical retal damage (if technically its working range can be kept in Retribution rather than globally) or increase its RtA% to 17% (if the former one is technically unprocurable).

  7. RtA DE: add 300% physical retal damage (if technically its working range can be kept in DE rather than globally) or increase its RtA% to 22% (if the former one is technically unprocurable).

Along with some small part of fire/lightning retal damage of these physical retal builds, these RtA skills can have similar damage to that in v1.2.0.5, by doing these suggested compensation mentioned above.

Thanks for reading. Again, thank you developers for making climbing SR easier to a new character, and thank you guys for constructing those amazing 4:00ish “naked” Ex builds and 0:20ish ravager builds. Nice Job!

6 Likes
2

This killed a lot of fun non retal builds as well…This bug should have been embraced and not fixed… Its fixing led to less build diversity.

3

Now that developers regard it as a bug and insist all physical damage, no matter conversion-based or not, no matter retal or not, should be reduced by monsters’ armor, this time I’m not gonna ask for it to come back but give suggestions on how to restore their damage to those before the fix.

2 Likes
4

Yeah, but all those funny Beronath Reforged builds are gone now… Their damage output is horrendously low… And that weapon has become useless. Maybe only physical EoR still uses it… And its damage is nothing great as well.

In all those years of GD this was the only major bad decision by the devs.

1 Like
5

Kinda off-topic :sweat_smile:

physical Voracious Reach (Yugol’s Hunger Relic) and phycial Acid Purge (Seal of Blight Component) for example. I played these two in v1.1.8.2.

Not only Beronath Reforged was influenced. How long has it been since you last saw a physical AAR build?

But today I’m not gonna judge this fix being good or bad. Let is be. Just give suggestions on exact builds that were influenced. This time, physical retal, which I like the most, for example.

6

That one is still good due to dedicated items. I have phys AAR Battlemage for SR 90. And Templar will be even better.

8

Now we need for Armor to not block each Phys damage instance separately but just all of them combined together

7 Likes
9

That would be a step up :+1: But it would raise the importance of phys res…

10

Why, do you think enemies have multiple instances of Phys damage on their attacks like players?

1 Like
11

Don´t know. Some sure could…

12

This is definately a huge project which needs thousands of tests, but I like this idea. :smiley:

Before that, I think we can focus on the something… in need. :joy:

I guess not. Hardly any enemies have multiple instances of Phys damage on their attacks like players.
But we’ll then need thousands of test on enemies’s phys res and armor and players’ flat Phys damage.
And since their are lots of phys2xxx conversion on skill modifiers…

13

They have weapon (some two), they have their own damage, they can have buffs… I see a space for some different sources…

14

I tried searching the forums for information on this as I remember Medierra (or maybe Zantai?) lamenting a long time ago about the balance of Physical Damage and having to add significant amounts all around in order to increase the overall damage. At the time it was not known that each specific Physical Damage source is separate and negated by Armor.

If I remember correctly there was an in-depth bug post from a Chinese player who figured it out at the time. Crate said that it was a leftover issue from Titan Quest that had not been known and would not be fixed as the game had been balanced with this “bug” in place. To fix it would involve way too much time (in their words) and I can see how this is true.

It’s always interesting to see these kind of bugs that pop up from time to time in the code when people go deep into it and figure out what’s wrong. It reminds me of when somebody discovered the rounding error in TQ’s loot that would have exactly the same loot generated down to the money amounts. You could only see this when fighting the same boss over and over and taking screenshots of what dropped. The items had the same seeds and were exact copies as well. Thankfully somebody who was very knowledgeable in statistics was able to figure out the problem so the community could patch it out.

3 Likes
15

I like the focused suggestions made in the OP. I can’t judge whether or not they’re good, as I haven’t played any retal builds myself, but I like the approach! :+1:

16

I feel like this is the kind of dev that is either trivial, or an absolute nightmare turning into an overhaul of the damage calculation system.

17

It’s probably not too terrible on the code dev side, but for sure a nightmare on the content side. You can’t just adjust the physical damage as that is used in conversions (and some stuff gets converted to physical). So you’d have to adjust armor probably? But it’s not trivial how to do that either.

18

It was terrible enough of a development cost to not do it at the time and the game has gotten
much larger in that time…

And I think they said it was a hard-coded “feature” from TQ days that they wouldn’t fix.

1 Like
19

juuust gonna ask if i’m getting this right
so assuming these changes get implemented, and we have a warlord that takes all these devs and items and skills (since non are mutually exclusive)
phys retal warlords end up with a +2000% physical retal bonus? @_@ did i get that right? - which on paper sounds insane ngl

guess i’m asking; is doubling phys retal warlods % dmg really necessary? are they this much in trouble? (because on appearance it sounds like a lot?)

1 Like
20

Nope. +%damage on none-buff damage-dealing skills only works on the skills themselves. Every +400% only works on the skill itself. Just like the +225% Trauma to Forcewave on Mythical Sigil of the Bear King

For example, if you have global +2000% physical retal damage, Targo’s hammer, Vire’s Cascade, Fist of Vire and Trample will be +2400%, but CS and retaliation itself are still +2000%.

This is not doubling. Physical retaliation itself is even nearly untouched. Just those RtA skills gets like 25% damage increased. After that, those RtA skills will have 90-99% damage of those in v1.2.0.5.

1 Like
21

not how it works tho, - and retribution is global buff (the % dmg ends up in your sheet)

as for the other skills tho, i see what the intent is, - i just assumed it was suggested as a passive.
Tho i’m kinda unsure on the technical sense if attack skills do/can scale like that - atleast i’d speculate retal isn’t considered “retal” anymore when rata?, thus can’t really add “raw” %retal scaling only in attempt to scale rata? (don’t remember another attack skill scaling that way atleast/for retal specific dmg gain?)
But then atleast it would make more sense than the initial thought of getting another 2k extra % retal :sweat_smile: