Poll: Component Completion Bonuses

[system]

I vote for Yes, hoping they will eventuall improve this feature. Possible adding more items of the ‘‘same’’ category that can have more bonushes, that can bring back some variation. 2 Kinds of Polished emerald for example.

Also, we could get an enchant system where it could change/randomize the extra bonus for very few money perhaps. That way, the original items would still stack and the randomized ones would be called “Enchanted Item” and could not be applied to anything related to quests etc etc…

Well, if this is done right, it could even be better than now.

Voting Yes based on pure speculation from your end isn’t the wisest of choices.

[system]

Sure, I apologize if that was too strongly worded and made you feel bad.

In terms of what I meant though, I do think when the poll goes a different way than one group hopes, there is a tendency to try to figure out “what is wrong with the poll” that could be leading people to choose the “bad” outcome. :undecided:

Dude Thanks, I totally didn’t expect an apology, that speaks volumes to your character. You and your team are awesome developers and people. To your response, I didn’t feel bad, I felt you were trying to discredit my posts by looking for flaws within them, instead of hearing me out. I only said what I felt was true, if there was no truth to be used, I would have been silent and only voted.

But you’re right, when a vote goes the wrong way people do look for ways to challenge the results. Would I have said what I did if the Yes question had the issue, I don’t know, probably not. People who wanted No probably would have came out to do so instead. Such is life.

[Ceno]

This is a topic that understandably generates a lot of bias, mainly due to the fact that people are mostly going to vote based on one specific factor: if they have the completion bonus they want already or not. Something which I feel sways their vote more so than any other positive/negative to the proposed change. With the current state of components, the completion bonus is largely what makes them a thing, but at the same time it creates a large number of far less valuable/useful components. Like, if you have Hallowed ground with +1 class skill to whatever class you play, there is no way you are going to choose something else. It’s objectively the best component for its slot by a huge margin and the potential +1 class bonus is just the icing on the cake for what makes it so good. However, completion bonuses are essentially what gives components their “depth” to begin with and are largely the reason why you would choose a specific component more than anything. This is a rather polarizing fact, where the diversity of components does not come from the components themselves but rather what random bonus happens to be attached to them. With all that said though, given the current state of the game, stripping away completion bonuses essentially kills off most of the depth to the system, because at least based on their current stats, BiS components will still be BiS. They will just lose the area that required player effort to achieve. Because of this I have to vote No, at least in the current state of components in Grim Dawn, where that are so few good ones to begin with.
However, I also think it is important to look at every change as an opportunity. Removing the completion bonus adds a lot of potential for how components can be redesigned, specifically the inclusion of new ones. With the current system, the completion bonus dictates their customization, but this honestly undermines the components themselves. If we were given a lot more choices for each slot, particularly with rare components, like for example, unique components could be designed around specific masteries, each providing a +1 class skill for their specific mastery and potentially offering a greater amount of synergy within that mastery, rather than everyone aiming for Hallowed Ground because it is simply the best component for its slot. Similar variety can be given to other gear slots, adding more and better combinations for offensive and defensive stats. That way, the choice truly starts to be based around what is the actual best component for your build rather than if the component has the right completion bonus. As it stands now, it seems a bit inevitable that completion bonuses will be removed in favor of convenience. But this does not mean that it also has to result in the loss of character customization, in fact it introduces the potential for far more, as long as Crate is willing to capitalize on it. When/if this change is implemented, I hope the devs will keep this in mind, because this truly is an opportunity to improve the component system at its core and add more layers of depth to customization and player choice.

Quoting all of this so that it doesn’t get lost in a sea of argumentation. Exactly my point of view as well, other than having voted opposite to you. Funny how the same points lead to different results.

[system]

Why is it everytime I post it’s always at the end of a page and gets lost immediately to a new page??? :furious: :furious: :furious:

[Nine]

Quoting all of this so that it doesn’t get lost in a sea of argumentation. Exactly my point of view as well, other than having voted opposite to you. Funny how the same points lead to different results.

Yeah lol. My reason for voting no is based solely on the current state of the game and I can only really give an opinion on what I know exists and not what I hope this change could lead to. Regardless, I still feel its important to be open minded with every change that comes to the game. It doesn’t have to be the as damning as some may believe, because with change comes new potential.

[JohnNamikaze]

It doesn’t have to be the as damning as some may believe, because with change comes new potential.

That depends on how much of the potential will come out of this change. Will these introduce new things that would overcome on the reason we are trying to protect? While it is great to be abstract, if it eventually leads to being concrete then it would be great to improve what exists.

[Nine]

That depends on how much of the potential will come out of this change. Will these introduce new things that would overcome on the reason we are trying to protect? While it is great to be abstract, if it eventually leads to being concrete then it would be great to improve what exists.

That is my hope. If this change resulted simply in removing completion bonuses and adjusting some stats essentially for little more than a minor convenience, I feel it would be a missed opportunity to improve the game and worse yet, potentially detract from it.

[medierra]

See I’m the opposite. If Crate would have just made the change and never asked us I would have been pissed, but then gotten over it. Just like I did with changes to OA Affixes and Crit Multiplier. But to come on here and say they don’t care either way and leave it up to the community, means I will never get past it. Reason being is the change wasn’t made because Crate felt it was the best thing for the game. It was made because to many people think Inventory Space is hard to get, and somehow having Generic Completion Bonuses will make Bounties OMFG so Awesome worthy.

To be clear, I’m the only one who doesn’t care either way. For others on the team, the completion bonuses are a headache that are making their jobs more difficult and preventing various aspects of the game from working as smoothly as they could. So they’re hoping to be able to make this change.

The poll is to get an impression of the level of support for a change within the community. The poll itself won’t necessarily decide the outcome just by a majority on one side or another. I will use the results though to help make my decision.

[system]

To be clear, I’m the only one who doesn’t care either way. For others on the team, the completion bonuses are a headache that are making their jobs more difficult and preventing various aspects of the game from working as smoothly as they could. So they’re hoping to be able to make this change.

The poll is to get an impression of the level of support for a change within the community. The poll itself won’t necessarily decide the outcome just by a majority on one side or another. I will use the results though to help make my decision.

Posting this again to hopefully get a reply:

Medierra

I was wondering if we could have saved this question until people had a chance to try and explore the bounty system? Or maybe revisit it again after the bounty system is implemented.

Honestly, I didn’t choose because I can’t base my decision on unknowns, while what we do have NOW I know, understand, and love. Let us make more INFORMED decisions and I"m sure people will choose yes or no depending on how the new content works.

I know that this could set back development, but we have already proven how patient we are to have GOOD content. We will see you through it all, but you can’t ask us to make these game sweeping changes on information we just don’t have. Like:

1. How are bounties accomplished? Do we just have to bring in 1 emerald for 2 faction change? Craft X, Y, Z that takes different material (Lotro does this, I love it) for a faction raise?

2. how will the completion bonuses be re-worked? Will they still be limited to specific pieces (which with limited choices seems way too limiting imho). Will there be multiple completion bonuses on one component?

Along with everyone else, I am skeptic about making a choice upon which I have no concept on which to grasp, only guesses and that leaves me shy to make a choice that could irreparably change the game, for good or bad.

The other issue that must be taken into account is that if/when completion bonuses are changed, people have no idea how their builds will be impacted. People, like me that have stacked OA and other specific stats will suddenly find that their builds now contain health regen or other unfavorably desired stats, or just downright unwelcome stats. People who used components to boost up resists are suddenly stripped of most of their defenses, leaving their builds highly undesirable. Then, you have completely weakened characters to face content that was considerably ramped up specifically because of their ability to min/max the system.

Then, you have to rework the code again to re-balance the game around this new extensive design.

[TonyDanza]

This is a topic that understandably generates a lot of bias, mainly due to the fact that people are mostly going to vote based on one specific factor: if they have the completion bonus they want already or not. Something which I feel sways their vote more so than any other positive/negative to the proposed change. With the current state of components, the completion bonus is largely what makes them a thing, but at the same time it creates a large number of far less valuable/useful components. Like, if you have Hallowed ground with +1 class skill to whatever class you play, there is no way you are going to choose something else. It’s objectively the best component for its slot by a huge margin and the potential +1 class bonus is just the icing on the cake for what makes it so good. However, completion bonuses are essentially what gives components their “depth” to begin with and are largely the reason why you would choose a specific component more than anything. This is a rather polarizing fact, where the diversity of components does not come from the components themselves but rather what random bonus happens to be attached to them. With all that said though, given the current state of the game, stripping away completion bonuses essentially kills off most of the depth to the system, because at least based on their current stats, BiS components will still be BiS. They will just lose the area that required player effort to achieve. Because of this I have to vote No, at least in the current state of components in Grim Dawn, where that are so few good ones to begin with.
However, I also think it is important to look at every change as an opportunity. Removing the completion bonus adds a lot of potential for how components can be redesigned, specifically the inclusion of new ones. With the current system, the completion bonus dictates their customization, but this honestly undermines the components themselves. If we were given a lot more choices for each slot, particularly with rare components, like for example, unique components could be designed around specific masteries, each providing a +1 class skill for their specific mastery and potentially offering a greater amount of synergy within that mastery, rather than everyone aiming for Hallowed Ground because it is simply the best component for its slot. Similar variety can be given to other gear slots, adding more and better combinations for offensive and defensive stats. That way, the choice truly starts to be based around what is the actual best component for your build rather than if the component has the right completion bonus. As it stands now, it seems a bit inevitable that completion bonuses will be removed in favor of convenience. But this does not mean that it also has to result in the loss of character customization, in fact it introduces the potential for far more, as long as Crate is willing to capitalize on it. When/if this change is implemented, I hope the devs will keep this in mind, because this truly is an opportunity to improve the component system at its core and add more layers of depth to customization and player choice.

This nails it for me. Well said, Nine.

If we can get some kind of guarantee that components and their relation to character/game balance gets seriously looked into after the proposed changes go into effect, I would feel more comfortable voting YES. But until I get more info on what future plans Crate has for components, I would have to vote NO.

[system]

I still feel that there should be a way to have a middle ground. One that wouldn’t need new UI. Something in the area of what I said first time in this thread.

But couldn’t there be a compromise somewhere in the middle? Like each component has its standard completion bonus, but also has a small chance of having a super completion bonus. All the regular ones would stack with themself, allowing all the PROS you want to happen. But the super ones would be special, rare, and if possible not used automatically during crafting or bounties.

Maby that’s not worded very well, but couldn’t there be a way that most of the components when combined would come out as regulars with a set bonus, they could stack and allow for all the PROS in the OP to happen. But have a chance of getting something better, with better bonuses, that is kept to put into your gear.

Then you’re not stuck with huge piles of junk in your inventory, but you can still have the thrill of finding a good completed component.

[mamba]

I vote for Yes, hoping they will eventuall improve this feature. Possible adding more items of the ‘‘same’’ category that can have more bonushes, that can bring back some variation. 2 Kinds of Polished emerald for example.

So basically you voted yes, hoping the random bonus would be unrolled into more components (not necessarily 10 times as many, but maybe 3 times)… sounds like NO would have been the safer choice

[system]

I guess to some extent, I enjoy the challenge of beating games in my crappy self-found gear and never having the best stuff. I’m possibly the odd man out here in this regard but I think we all tend to look at games differently.

And after I’ve done that I want to complete every component and craft every formula.

You can balance around your self-found gear. Many of us can win that way too. And the game pacing is horribly slow. And if you manage to get enough gear for the game to play at a reasonable speed it’s totally trivialized.

TQ:IT had incredibly replayability because of the large number of masteries and the somewhat absurd length of the game. You don’t have that here. Replayability has to come from somewhere else.

I wish you guys were thinking more about game balance and replayability issues rather than mucking around with components.

[Chameleon]

How about 2 types/tiers/variations of components, one as it is now and a second type with a fixed completion bonus which can be used for bounties?

Sorry if this has been mentioned, not read all 20 pages yet.

[mamba]

completion bonuses are essentially what gives components their “depth” to begin with and are largely the reason why you would choose a specific component more than anything. This is a rather polarizing fact, where the diversity of components does not come from the components themselves but rather what random bonus happens to be attached to them.

agreed

However, I also think it is important to look at every change as an opportunity. Removing the completion bonus adds a lot of potential for how components can be redesigned, specifically the inclusion of new ones. With the current system, the completion bonus dictates their customization, but this honestly undermines the components themselves. If we were given a lot more choices for each slot, particularly with rare components, like for example, unique components could be designed around specific masteries, each providing a +1 class skill for their specific mastery and potentially offering a greater amount of synergy within that mastery

this can be done without any change as well, see e.g. Bindings of Bysmiel, while not for a specific mastery, they clearly are only of interest to pet builds

[system]

I wish you guys were thinking more about game balance and replayability issues rather than mucking around with components.

the last patch did a great deal for game balance, to be fair. that’s sort of uncalled for.

[system]

the last patch did a great deal for game balance, to be fair. that’s sort of uncalled for.

yes, but game balance would have to be revisited again if completion bonuses are changed.

[mamba]

Sorry that my not voting may tilt the balance in a way that may alter the game in a way many will not like. However, I can’t. Only because I don’t know how Bounties will work, how completion bonuses will be reworked, and how that is going to affect build diversity and game balance.

Well, no matter how they get reworked, you do know build diversity suffers as there will be a lot less combinations.

[system]

Well, no matter how they get reworked, you do know build diversity suffers as there will be a lot less combinations.

Yes, as is addressed in my post

[system]

yes, but game balance would have to be revisited again if completion bonuses are changed.

yeah, i think it would be a nightmare.