Pondering: how open is too open?

Grim Dawn Development Updates
1

Currently pondering how “open” the levels should be. I’ve created a rather large expanse of swampland with the idea of hiding little quests and unique locations in the remote corners of it. However, I’m starting to grow concerned that more “casual” players might stray off the path, get lost, and not know where to go.

I also question the balance between the excitement of lateral exploration vs. the satisfaction of apparent forward progression through a more linear world. Oblivion was a lot of fun to explore, for example, but I never felt that satisfaction associated with “getting to the next level”.

I really liked the “series of boxes” level progressing that existed in D2 as opposed to the more linear and sometimes very narrow trail you were on in TQ. However, it is difficult trying to transition the D2 style layout to a 3d game with more realistic geography.

I think breaking it up into smaller, uniquely named chunks might help. I’m thinking we probably need a much improved map that shows region names and such.

2

Is it currently set up so that you can travel to the “end-game area” right off the bat? I would think that the best way to do it would be to have separate areas, where the more advanced areas are guarded by higher level enemies. This way the barrier is not an artificial one, and it is still possible to go anywhere :slight_smile:

As far as players getting lost, just make sure that there is a good marker system for where you need to go for your current/next quest. However for the side quests make it so that you need to actually find them.

Gotta go now so I have to cut this short =/

3

Is there such a thing as a casual aRPG fan?

As long as you clearly mark the beaten path so that people know the way that they should be going, then you can make the rest of the area as open as you wish.

Areas where the grass is worn, fallen down walkways across larger water expanses and various easy to find landmarks would make traversing a swamp interesting while not letting the player get too lost.

Should they wish to go off the beaten track and explore then there are risks (Getting lost) and rewards (Side Quests) for doing so.

4

IMO TQ was big enough that it felt like I was exploring a decent amount and advancing forward fast enough that I felt like I was actually getting somewhere. Some indicators of locations such as random signs or torches (which never burn out for some reason:confused:) would help me as a player not feel like I’ve been trekking through the same flat level swamp the whole time and it would give a sense of direction or site marker (Immortal Throne did a fairly good job with that by adding ruins and huge trees [that were hard to see through sometimes]). The area before Athens in TQ and just before that were decently large and wide for me…though I wasn’t much of a fan of the space between M and F. The places that I felt really enclosed where at the beginning-ish of TQ and at Elysium.

As far as maps are concerned, there wasn’t much of a problem with TQ’s map because there was no real need to backtrack. However with GD’s placement of quests in remote areas, it would be nice to have the map display things more prominently. A lot of colors and locations on the TQ map blended in with everything else which made it hard to see exactly where that quest NPC was when I forgot to revisit them (nowadays I just know all the maps anyways that it doesn’t matter). Putting region lines on the map would help in finding stuff but only if the quest log gives some notation of the region name or description of what the region should look like (the npc doesn’t give a name but says the location is a swamp with a lot of giant spiders)

In a nutshell though…I think a good demo would suffice in receiving a more accurate response :smiley: or a map screenshot

5

It IS a bit difficult to discuss this theoretically. (and i laughed at the demo remark, very clever!:smiley: )

Anyway, as this is probably a matter of preference at foremost, we can all just post what we like and you can stir a delicious soup out of it.
I didn’t like the narrow maps in TQ very much. I’m talking about the layout, not the artistic design, of course, which was amazing. This is because when i play a game, especially games that have “rp” somewhere in their genre-description, i want to have my own personal story going on inside the sand-box of the game. You know, each time i create and play a character there should be a way of playing it differently this time. Other items, other skills, speed of progression etc… And TQ didn’t offer much variance in progressing through the world.
When i played Sacred 1 (which i did a lot) i truly loved the fact that each character totally went a different way through the world (pretty much like oblivion i guess. I only played that one a few hours so i cant tell, really). Sure, there are chokepoints for the story, but they feel very different each time because i come from a very different place. This made the game valuable for endless hours. And not just loot-grind but actual adventuring, if you know what i mean. And the best is really to go to a place in the game where you have the feeling you’re so far away from the main path that you’re the first player ever here and then you find some unique content like a quest or a special mob. Thats an amazing experience.
Now there is a huge difference in “getting lost” in a 2d game and a 3d game. In 2d games you always know where you are regarding the general setting of the world. In 3d, with camera rotation, you can easily run back or in circles before you even know it. I can see that. But for me, the benefits from exploration outweigh the danger of loosing some time from backtracking by far. But i’m a very patient player.
What to do with players who want to progress quickly? Well, there’s always the main path, isn’t there? With lamp posts on each side etc… so if you follow that you’ll be fine. :smiley:

I think there’s one funny psychological problem, though, with levels that are somewhere between narrow and open. I like to “complete” stuff in games. And clearing the fog of war is certainly one of them. So, if the levels are as narrow as in TQ, that was easily done and felt good doing. In an open world, clearing the fog becomes impossible unless you are really like a crazy lawnmower, so there’s no pressure to do it. But if the levels are somewhere in between then you will probably constantly have the feeling that you need to clear the map but its too far to be fun to do as it takes ages but it’s still so close that you know you miss good stuff if you don’t. Maybe it’s just me, though.

Bottom line: i’m all for wide open areas with hidden stuff like small quests and the occasional special boss. Narrow levels are good too, for other reasons. I don’t like something inbetween. In any case, there’s one thing that should be considered when making big maps: don’t create blind alleys :wink: nothing feels more like: you went wrong, sir! like hitting a wall somewhere and needing to backtrack a huge part.

6

Even talking to an npc and telling him your lost to get a hint in which direction to go would be nice. But how would they know if you were lost to start with, always having the option to ask someone where do I go now, I don’t think would be that great. So that is a catch 22 in my book.

I travel by fog of war alot, just due to that I know I have not been there yet, I don’t want to miss some nice golden chest just because I took a shortcut. I like the way TQ would re-fog the map when running back through a successive time.

I like the idea of really having to scour the areas to find quests, hidden locations, as it really adds to some of the other ideas posted in the past.

I don’t recall if there has been posts about a quest compass or not that always points to the primary/ secondary quest or selected quest that is active in a log book or something.

How about a spell that would summon a “Knowledge” NPC for lack of a better wordd that would go to the nearest town seeking info regarding quest hints, location hints, direction to go kinds of things, and would return in 5 minutes or so(proportional to distance from town) to let you know. This would only be usable once ever hour maybe?

I like the map being open and being able to go anywhere and not just have one road to the end. In two worlds, you could travel to the end area, but could not enter due to not having done all the needed quests to get there. True the monsters were very hard to kill or even fatal to you if you were not leveled high enough yet, but made for interesting game play.

Sometimes it does get frustrating if you are not sure where to go next.

7

I like the region concept and having quests (nothing essential, just something fun, exciting and with decent loot) in the far reaches as a reward for actually going there.

I never got lost in any game with a decent map (and rarely in those without decent maps), so I would not be overly worried about that.

Having regions through which you progress either along the main path or by roaming the entire region would be my preferred choice - I will always explore anything however :wink:

8

I still like the idea of having more than one path that ultimately leads to the same area (branching paths). That way the player doesn’t really get lost, and it makes re-plays more fun.
But I wouldn’t want multiple paths throughout the entire game, just here & there occasionally.

But I trust you Medierra 100%, to balance out the game perfectly.
I personally had no issues with Titan Quest at all, and felt that they were designed flawlessly. However, some did (& will) complain that they would prefer maps that were always changing (a la Torchlight), which to me just makes the game world seem far less real and more maze-like. I swear, in TL I felt like a lab rat in a maze that was trying to get to some cheese. :mad:
TQ by comparison felt a bit more linear, but also more realistic. I’ll take that over randomization any day.
But I know that everyone’s personal tastes are different, so no matter what you do, some will always take issue with it.
But from what I hear, Grim Dawn sounds like it is headed in the right direction. More linear main levels, but with some randomization of the dungeon areas. Sounds like a great compromise to me.

As for size…
I say mix it up.
Have some bigger, and have some smaller with branching paths. Keep a level of variety that feels fresh and exciting.
That’s my opinion anyways.

9

I like that you have concerns like that.
I’d say D2 could’ve used more, TQ was good, Sacred 2 could’ve used way less.

I’m more in for the level of progress in the main story and the ability to search every corner of the map.

Mixing open areas with narrow paths is also good, remember some of them from TQ, after exploring for a while you came across a small path you had to follow, had a nice feeling about them.
I think you’ll get it just right :wink:

10

I do have one request though…

For the love of GOD, please do NOT put any weird or strange levels in GD that are like that one level in Diablo 2 that had those stair cases & everything else looked like it was in outer space.
I wanted to scratch out my eyes every time I played that level. :furious:

If you do anything like that then I will hunt you down & force feed you lead based paint. :rolleyes:

BTW
I honestly don’t know what brought this up, but for some strange reason I can’t explain, I had the fear that you were planning a level just like that, or similar enough.
That level in Diablo 2 with the staircases in outer space (shudders) is one of my most despised levels / areas of any game throughout the history of games, & I’ve been playing video games for 25 years (PC & all home consoles).

11

Having an overly expansive world doesn’t really help the feeling of progression. This is the feeling I got when playing Oblivion. However, on that same token, Oblivion was a fun game that I felt I could play for hours, it just got too tedious. It was tedious having to trek half a mile with nothing to do, to get to my next destination.

As for TQ, it was a beautiful game, but the narrow paths, that told you “go this way, because you pretty much have to” was fine with me. However, opening those areas up a little bit in a way that flows, would have been awesome. Giving us different mediums to travel through or just opening the narrow trail up with a wider range. I have nothing wrong with going the direction the game makes me, it would just be nice to have a bigger area, or different paths to choose from.

By that I mean, imagine a canyon, it opens up at the mouth, sprawls out in a direction and closes back up eventually. Inside of those sprawls are areas of twists and turns that take you the direction towards it’s mouth at the other end.

Or, imagine a river - it always flows down stream, sometimes it opens up into a bigger lake bed, or splits, but the 2 ends sometimes meet eventually.

This is the same thing I would love to see more of in games - you have a large path that eventually takes you to your destination, or you have several paths 2-3, to choose from that take you to the next area. That is, there is no “right” answer, because you can progress in either way.

This comes down to 1 thing I love about plat-formers - you go in one direction and you always know how to progress the story. I like this in ARPG’s also, but I’d like to see more variations in how you progress.

For example, in the swamp land area, you could have the canyon-type progression, where it’s a big expanse, with trees that create the twisting and turning of a natural swamp. But it closes up at the other side of swamp, so no matter what direction you go, you eventually get to the end and progress the story.

For a mountain type level, I think it’s great if you’re given 2 or so paths, the low ground, the high ground or the mountain pass (cave-like area) each path takes you to the same place and progresses the story.

The same could be said about a wooded area, the difference being that there would be different trails to choose from, but each trail brings you to the same destination.

I also think there should be a mix of straight-forward paths, alongside these differing canyon type, and river like paths. Straight-forward paths that don’t cause you to pause also aid the player in feeling like they are progressing, but you should use these intermittently and when it feels “right.”

If I could draw a map for you, I’d show you what I’m talking about, I kind of hope my description helps.

Essentially, imagine a canyon, it has a wide open space but it’s enclosed, and takes you in one direction from one mouth to the next, with various obstacles in-between.

Imagine a river, with varying paths, sometimes it opens up into a lake sometimes it splits paths, to be rejoined later. It always flows downstream, this is the exact same kind as progression that I would like to see.

Also, being able to take caves, or other under-ground areas to get to some place would be nice.

12

i liked the dunged siege 1 way where you had multiple liner crossing paths to take along the storyline but you also had access to the end game if you went through the forest at the start. you could branch of from christwind too there was defiantly a way too play but also a lot of openness

13

I enjoy variation - so a wide open swampland with some hidden secrets sounds great. But if all areas are like this, then it will become odd. A pass over or a canyon/valley in the mountains needs to be more constrained. Such places can have their own secrets though.

Why would you like to create open areas? Well, to fill it with gameplay content:

I enjoy puzzles in RPGs. How much do you want to include to an ARPG? I personally would enjoy a gerne mix. Most of the RPGs I played are PS1 titles. For some reason they managed the side quests very well - they did not make that many, but some of them were real time sinks (e.g. Chocobo Breeding in FF VII, treasure hunting with your Chocobo in FF IX). I believe that many RPGs for PCs tend to have an abundance of side quests, which are hardly releated to the main quest. This feels arbitrary to me and neither gives me the excitement of lateral exploration nor the satisfaction of apparent forward progression. Do I digress?

If you are concerned about side quests and hidden secrets … players need a chance to become familiar with your game. GD should point players to such things in the beginning, then increase the difficulty, but have them included regularly.

Side quests and hidden stuff should give them positive feedback and a feeling of achievement - e.g.: “I found out myself”, “I understood the hint”, “I learned something new about Cairn and/or the aliens”.

Edit: Conclusion - make your areas open enough, so that you can fill them with content in an immersive way.

14

As far as map options go, I don’t think you could ever do better than the way Ascaron did it with Sacred 2.

A truly huge map(LINK) but really simple GUI(LINK).

If you can get anywhere near that, you’re onto a winner.

15

I like to get lost, because I am always here :smiley: nomatter where I am.

so open plains ( or marshes) with a hint of a road can be wonderfull. especially if you have the teleporting system like in tq, if you got lost => you can either find your way back on your own, or teleport to the nearest waypoint…

16

I agree with ya mate. Grim Dawn can have it’s own style GUI as long as the players unit frame is moveable, or down the bottom near the hotkeys! :smiley: of course, this is just my own personal preference and I’m being selfish.

A huge map like Sacred 2 would be awesome. Probably won’t be implemented like that, but I love the feeling of being inside a huge world and not necessarily a linear one. This is what impressed me about Sacred 2 first and foremost. As a L1, you can catch a boat to the other side of the ocean to a far away land, and get absolutely rolled!

But then again, I liked TQ because it was linear with some room to move. You could stick to the track and run through the checkpoints or you could venture out a bit and find some chests or a cave.

Damn… it’s a hard choice! Maybe a map the size of Sacred’s with a linear progression but with options to explore… haha I just want it all. :rolleyes:

17

So long as there are no maenad type monsters(one of my most hated TQ monster. lol) that keep running away I’m fine with an open area.

18

Taking Sacred 2 as reference, i think this size of areas is too big. Well, not as such, but it is next to impossible to fill it with stuff that doesn’t keep repeating itself too often.
Again, just a matter of taste, but i think the majority of players feels bored after killing the same type of monster for a thousands time.

The ui has a waypoint and compass system which TQ didn’t have. I’m not sure what Crate has planned for GD. But if the areas open up the need for something like this increases obviously.

And i might add that i like it to have a dot on the world map where my next quest target is.
There are several benefits like, obviously, i know where to go. But also i know how far away from the target i am so i can plan my time. Do i take a break and feed the cats now or after i reached my target? Likewise, do go directly or take the time to check left and right… Then there’s another feedback that tell’s me that i have a purpose. In TQ sometimes i forgot why i’m running through the silk road. I mean sure… fighting evil bla bla but not a feeling of a precise goal. With a dot and a mouseover-tooltip you get a visual indicator for what your goal is at any time.
And it also will help with a rotating camera and levels that will allow other exit points than “north” as in TQ.

So… but this is a bit ot.

Sacred 2 is way too big :wink:

19

I think it shouldnt be overdone, especially not in the first release.

Some hidden areas are nice but for the start you might want to focus on the main-part that 85% of the players will actually get to see.

I really love secret areas and side-quests and minigames (Kindgom Hearts, FF9 and FF7 where the best in that category) and would love to see them in the game but for now you shouldn’t go overboard.^^

Ofc in the first addon I want to see loads of epic side-quests and hidden regions.^^

oh @oblivion: I didn’t play a single part of the mainquest (except for the tutorial) but my char is like lvl30. It’s so much fun to go on an adventure.^^

20

As mentioned several times, I also think the keyword is VARIATION :slight_smile:

Some large (or possibly huge) areas, other times very small, narrow ones. This should be possible to mix even with your possibilities ($-wise), as larger areas would require some variation, but could reuse more textures, and smaller/narrower ones would add the mixture.
For example, I’l love hunting a fleeing (mini-)boss over the large swamps, only to find him at the narrowing part which would lead on? Or just think of the ambush possibilities of going through a small shadowy canyon?

I like the idea of ‘branching’, but due to your economical restraints, perhaps this could be done as small add-ons for replay value as new expansions or packs become available after release.
Perhaps even go as far as ‘hide’ them in larger expansions elsewhere, where you may change a conversation with a NPC or provide a whole new NPC which would lead you on the trail, or perhaps just signs, tell-tales or the like, whichever you can conjure :slight_smile:

So much for my rambling:rolleyes:, I have one more idea for you to crack your heads and my skull on: I’d like to travel to and through and abandoned or overrun human city, or perhaps visit a human city which turned against you, due to your ‘overhuman’ powers, due to ones exposure to the warp. To them the PC would be an outsider and so on…