Pondering: how open is too open?

There is nothing wrong with open spaces, as long as you have the change to go explore AND! the big and find stuff that makes the game fun.

and yes i see the logic in a linar game, no need to use brain, just hit W and at some point you finish the game WOW, naaaah big areas with alot quests and ofcorse, the respawn of monsters might be the downfall. ARPG can also be to mutch hack and slash, gets boring to.

So Crate i know you have a hard job to do satifying so many difrence oppinions :slight_smile: just keep up the great work and we all will be happy.


legend fan

My thoughts exactly.

personally though it requires more effort, i’d rather have a HUGE ass world to explore and travel, sacred style where merely exploring could take days, that’s fun, but i like exploring so :stuck_out_tongue:

Though sacred failed in many points, i like the map ALOT

towns are placed in specific locations, you can enter a new zone through multiple places, and imo that just makes a game more epic…

The problem with boxed zones such as in TQ and D2… is that i feels like its a straight line to the end i mean…

if somebody wants to travel lets say from city X to city Z he HAS to cross Y… why?.. neway that’s my take on it

What’s the point of exploring in an ARPG? All you’re going to find is another group of the same mobs you just killed 10 seconds ago.

then again whats the point of not exploring a ARPG

Those are two different opinions on how you and i like games. i like to explore travel and feel that the world is huge rather than going trough zones of each areas that make it slimmed down and a straight line to the end, thats my take on it.

I just like to explore, i like to see the world evolve and not go straight from grass to snow after a loading.

I’ll repeat my own statement:

The areas can be as open as technically possible - as long as there is some sort of visible way/road you can follow to get to the next part of the main quest. (And way-splits feature signs to give directions).

As long as players have a chance to get on with the game on the direct route if they want to, and as long as a player can tell if he’s on track or obviously straying from the path - and said path is visible on the map and minimap, so it’s easy to get back onto it - I see no absolutely no problem with opening up the areas and making them bigger.

Style looks quite like D3. But in a browser… hm, sounds er… interesting.

i’d say: the bigger, the better! More space to explore, more creature to kill, chance for good loot! Just as long as there’s some sort of guide on the minimap, so ppl dont get lost.

But experience is usually balanced around killing all the mobs, so people just following the path will find themselves quickly under leveled. I’d rather there be lots of side areas and dungeons that branch off. Big open boxes slow down the action as they make you run back and fourth over and over to make sure you didn’t miss anything.

This is a tough one…personally I would say somewhere in the middle.

I thought Sacred 2’s huge open world worked to it’s own detriment. It was just too big and traveling all over the place or riding around on the mount (another thing I don’t think compliments ARPG’s) broke up the action a bit too much.

The biggest draw for me in a large open world is the sense of exploration, and I just don’t think it works out that well in such a fast pace game.

What I think works well with a game like this is similar level design as TQ with more optional side tracks and secrets to find. So nice sized levels with funnels between them basically. Perhaps larger than TQ but not much more. The optional side stuff should be exciting to do though, and also be very rewarding…both in xp/items and visually. Getting off the beaten path to do some side dungeon becomes mundane if it looks like every other dungeon and the rewards aren’t there. BUT if that dungeon is unique and looks awesome and there’s a unique mini-boss and maybe even a cool quest, then that’s something that not only makes the player say ‘cool!’ but also motivates them to explore the next side area as well.

Bottom line for me is huge open worlds are meaningless if they are filled with copy and past content. Make the world only as big and non-linear as you guys can handle without sacrificing the wow factor :cool:

I have a personal definition for too open:

Lets say you have area X which is a large open area with many paths branching off. Too open would be if area X is large enough such that you cannot recall off simple memory on where you have been in area X or sidepaths, and what is located down said sidepaths.

Based on what I read here putting rewards, challeges or quests down branch areas is absolutely essential to make developing those areas worthwhile.

Yeah so what?

That kind of stuff balances itself.

Consider town X to be at any point in the game. Player A rushes there along the path, player B explores everything. The areas surrounding Town X feature monsters of Level 20.

When Player A reaches town X he’ll be playing for maybe 5 hours since start, and be level 15. He’ll have trouble defeating the enemies around, combat will be tough on him. But every monster he defeats gives him a considerable amount of XP - since he’s only level 15 and doesn’t need that much XP to level up. So while he will be slower to go on because the fights are so challenging, he’ll get so much XP that he still will level up at an average rate.

When Player B reaches town X he’ll be playing for maybe already 10 hours since start, and he’ll be level 25 already. He’ll be able to handle to handle large groups of enemies at once, and he’ll be pretty fast in deposing them. So he can go exploring a lot, since he is very quick around the map. But since he is higher in level he needs a much higher amount of XP to level up, the XP these monsters give are not so much for him. So although he kills much faster and much more enemies in the same time, he doesn’t level up faster than the other guy, because the XP he gets is lower for him (when compared to what he needs for level up).

Both players will be wearing items that are level 20. Since the enemies here are level 20, the items they drop are level 20, so both will have equipment of about the same quality. This helps to average things out even more.

So if you consider this, any player can either rush on, or explore a lot, and the game will automatically adapt to his playstyle. If you rush on to the tougher monsters, you will get tougher fights, more challenging enemies, and you’ll be slower to move on.

If you like to explore and go around killing all the weaker mobs, the game will offer you more of this as you go on, and you will be faster getting around, so exploring doesn’t slow down and become tedious.

Almost all ARPGs work that way, and therefore allow you to define your own pace. Most players will be somewhere in the middle. And in fact every player can control that. He can skip some areas and rush ahead if he wants tougher action, or stray around a bit and level up, if he feels the game get’s to hard on him.

I believe that is one of the most elegant, inherent gameplay mechanics of this genre. It’s just beautiful!

A good mixture would be my choice, with preferences for the type of level design known from TQ, instead of running circles in square boxes like in D2.
It was really a great experience to be able to watch down from high cliffs and mountains, walking up and down on narrow paths and explore wide fields und grasslands.
So a bit more wide boxes for exploring like woods, pasture lands and still some straight areas, like a mountain pass, or a coastline, where you advance faster.

Yeah I liked TQ’s map way better than Diablo II’s…everything felt much more natural and scenic.

When working on Mass Effect 2, a common issue was simply lighting. By leading the character to the desired location, we used light to emphasis the correct path. The user who ventured off the beaten track, checked out that dark corner would be rewarded. A large vast swamp sounds like a similar situation. Torches, lighter mud/stones leading the user in the correct direction can aid greatly in preventing the casual user from getting lost.

edit: A large open area that feels unique compared to the rest of the games more linear progression is a nice treat for the more hardcore users/completionists.

I thought the locations in TQ were a bit too small, while not easy to get lost, I would like to see more bigger areas, more dungeons and more places to explore, rather then forcing the playing in a very linear path, but I agree that TQ method is a lot better then D2, even though D2 was random, which wasn’t bad, but not random in D3, which I have mixed feelings about, even though dungeons will remain random, I would like to see some more random stuff, a few dungeons / secret areas, just to add to exploration

but some bigger areas I think is a must, as TQ seemed too small in a few places,

I just discovered TQ recently thanks to Steam and can’t believe I had missed it as it is exactly the cure for my ARPG cravings. Imagine my delight when I learned about Grim Dawn and after seeing the old grove video I couldn’t stop thinking about all the great new features and possibilities.

So after reading through the entire thread I have to agree with most that a mix of open areas and narrow close quarters is best. I must admit a large open swamp area to wander off in might be fun. Especially if you can get a look/feel like Dagobah. Maybe some large trees and burrow areas to hide bonus monsters or loot.

The other questions raised in the thread about how to motivate people to play through epic/legendary also made me think since the engine already supports destructible items like the statue might it not be possible to have side areas that are blocked by giant trees that can only be destroyed and cleared away to explore past after reaching the next difficulty? You could have statues blocking the path and in normal difficulty you attack the statue and small bits crumble off but it remains standing. Then in Epic mode your attack or spell gets upgraded and now when you blast the statue it flies apart revealing a new area behind it. This would also have the added benefit of giving the player the feeling that he is impacting the world. In Legendary maybe a river blocks access to an area but your cleave ability upgrade now lets you slice the giant redwood adjacent to the bank down and create a bridge across. Any use of the destructible environment to open up areas previously unavailable would be a great leap forward in the genre in my opinion.

Look forward to seeing your continued success and can’t wait for GD release!

I’m very much an explorer guy - I played WoW until I’d seen all the areas then quit :wink: So I have strong feelings about openness.

Variety and choice is good - I like being able to choose between different themed areas - rocky trail, highway, backwoods rambling to get from A to B. Having the choice between three identical forest areas is just irritating, as I’ll have to plow through them all to see if there’s anything interesting there.

Open areas are generally good, but it depends on the the distribution of interesting content.

Particularly with a top downish ARPG it’s hard to see landmarks in the distance, so when faced with a large open area (I’m thinking of the swamp in TQ, just before Delphi I think) my gamer brain immediately tells me to systematically explore the area in space-invader style which is REALLY BORING.

The area could be even larger, but if there were pockets of interesting content - marshy islands, ruined fishing villages, whatever - which were signposted nearby with interesting debris or trails leading to the main area I could happily wander the vast expanse without worrying that I missed a chest in the half screen of fog of war left in that corner over there.

Equally, if I can be reasonably certain that there’s no interesting content in a large area, I’ll just run straight across it and it might as well have been a corridor.

Now, when playing the game the SECOND time I’d do it very differently. Assuming you’re going with a fixed map again I’ll already know where everything is, and I’ll just beeline for the interesting loot/quests and an open area will only be useful as a large reservoir of mobs to grind, which once again isn’t very interesting.

I’ll write another post about what I would find interesting in area design, because this one’s quite a wall of text already.

Thinking about swampy areas again, here’s a description of an area I’d have a lot of fun playing in.

The area starts with a small fishing village which is at the end of the coastal highway running between steep cliffs and the sea from the previous interesting region in the South. The village is build on a rocky promontory which also provides a small harbour, but past the village on the other site of the rocks is a swampy delta which needs to be crossed to make it to the next large city. The cliffs move inland around the back of the swamp, eventually leading to a large waterfall which feeds the swamp, then continuing around the back of the swamp toward, and after some time the city is on the more pleasant land at the top of the cliffs.

The highway continues through the village and across the swamp - it’s well built up and maintained, and easy to traverse even for large merchant caravans arriving from the south. There are a few bridges over major waterways, and maybe an outpost somewhere for a bit of flavour. After the swamp ends, the highway actually gets worse as it reaches the foot of the cliff leading to the city and there are a series of steep switchbacks to climb the cliff.

The player is obviously trying to reach the city for some plot reason, and of course there has been some kind of cataclysm which means the world is full of monsters now.

The city is under siege from the evil army, but most of the sieging is going on at the main gates leading out the other side of the city onto the plains on top of the cliffs. There is a small but sufficient evil force which has been sent to block the highway through the swamp, although assaulting the city up the cliff road would be suicide for them. There are also assorted wild crawlies; crocodiles, snakes, giant leeches or whatever else lives in swamps. There are also some kind of flying nasties living in the cliffs.

The swamp is passable, but unpleasant, possibly with random light poisoning effects or something else that would be trivial for a healing type player to shake off, but would be irritating (not really dangerous) for those without easy healing.

Now, the player’s primary goal is just to reach the city. This can be achieved through either muscling along the highway through the evil army unit, going off-piste through the swamps with sporadic poisonous critters and occasional patrols to be avoided, or taking a cliff path and dealing with the nimble flying beasties. Some of these options will be easier for different play styles, which should help replayability with different classes. Also, the first objective is just to pass through the area so actually killing the baddies is less important than rushing or shielding your way through if the baddies won’t pursue you.

For more value there will be additional quests to actually clear the three routes rather than just getting yourself through. Open trade to the city again, clear the mountain path, and maybe find something in the swamp. This will be more difficult than just getting through, and should be tied to some other major quest system like organising resistance to the evil army (complete 5 of 8 ‘help settlements’ quests to advance), and will require coming back at a higher level.

Then, once the routes have actually been cleared you can change the enemy spawning profile of the region to a ‘scattered resistance’ model where you can walk down the highway without being molested by rats every five seconds, but you will still encounter SCATTERED, tougher remnants of the evil army which you can either fight and will be challenging to your new higher level, or avoid if you don’t actually want to participate in this region at the moment.

All in all, I think the feature I would like most is to have different models for ‘initial spawn’ and ‘respawn’ to change the character of areas you’ve been to before, and to make conflicts optional once you’ve thoroughly trounced them once.

Now, the player’s primary goal is just to reach the city. This can be achieved through either muscling along the highway through the evil army unit, going off-piste through the swamps with sporadic poisonous critters and occasional patrols to be avoided, or taking a cliff path and dealing with the nimble flying beasties. Some of these options will be easier for different play styles, which should help replayability with different classes. Also, the first objective is just to pass through the area so actually killing the baddies is less important than rushing or shielding your way through if the baddies won’t pursue you.

This really sounds great. I’d love to play something like that, a game where you have to make a decision because path A it’s easier that pass B if you are a warrior/gunslinger/whatever… And three different paths sounds greater.

Totally +1