AoE is something I missed in my analysis. Yes great point, guys!
Ranged AA is a very different breed than melee. Ranged cannot get a big flat damage because for some reason, the base flat damage is always low. That also reinforce by the fact that all of flat source damage in Devo is nerfed because melee AA is so good.
So, ranged AA need to rely on mechanics tricks, cannot be build straightforward anymore. Thus why now the only viable option is fire strike and RF retal. The latter is also quite tricky to build, but I have 1 successful hellborne build here:
Both of that archetype rely on WPS interaction to their AA replacer mechanics. Brimstone+explosive/static strike+shotgun WPS, and retal+shotgun/barrage WPS. No other way around it as base flat damage is so low. That’s also why non retal ranged RF, cadence, savagery are so sucks right now. On a side note, using this mechanic makes you no different than melee, you need to shoot it point blankly to the enemies. “Ranged” benefit is not exist in this game.
My suggestion:
- reverse the Nerf on storm spread, give it back that 5 projectiles
- increase the base +% damage of 1H gun, this will strengthen that mechanic interaction and make it better as caster weapon.
- if the base flat of all 1h and 2h ranged need to be increased, it need to be tested first. Idk if it can make it too strong or not.
- ranged cadence and savagery and non retal RF need their own tricks. The simplest solution is a transmuter that gives +%total damage mod.
- for the love of the god, please give 100% pass through projectiles to hagarradian enforcer so I can make a proper penetrating ABB build.
Edit: - also give better base attack speed to 1H ranged
Need to update this. 
This either needs to happen at a lower rank (before it was 16/10) or don’t do it at all and instead increased flat damage or weapon damage. Only very few builds could afford going 16/10 as ranged is generally point heavy.
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Agreed. I tried to make a “Punisher” build with Valdun’s as a Commando (for thematic reasons only!) and it was a steaming pile of 
. In my opinion, Valdun’s needs a rework being a Cadence set that gives WPS?? Skill points are really lacking on that set.
Very good point. Unless you’re in the thick of it, which is counter intuitive to the idea of ranged builds, then you cannot kill large groups. There’s pretty limited AOE radius with range builds anyways, so range builds are at a disadvantage compared to melee.
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As mad_lee mentioned increasing flat damage on ranged weapons and on that note what about a much larger %damage bonus on 2h ranged for better returns on flat damage? Although I’m not sure if/when diminishing returns start to occur
wait a minute isnt Chaos Habringer one of the strongest build right now?
[1.1.4.1] Har'Zin's 2H Ranged/Doooom Bolt Deceiver - Crucible Farmer with 1.600k Crits (3Buffs;1Banner) this looks insanely good.
Weird how inquisitor gets chaos RR but not occulist, which makes anything not involving inquis for chaos build lacking RR…
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7:42 is a far cry from “insanely good” in lieu of other builds getting two minutes (or more) less than that.
The problem with ranged archtype in GD is lack of player ability to keep that range. Due to player move speed cap, mobility skills CD restrictions,creep immunity to all CC effects and every mob running around with charge skills the range advantage of GD gunslingers last for few seconds. As results “ranged” builds are indistinguishable from melee builds in playstyle.
Unless the core of the problem is deal with all you guys can offer is powercreep. Ranged suck? MOAR dmg. Not enough AoE? MOAR AoE dmg. creeps hits hard? Free armor for everyone in the most convinient way. Creeps still hit hard? Moar ADCTH.
Such “balancing” will end at everyone becaming casters that hit whole screen in AoE, leech full live in instant and don`t move around too much. Oh wait i just described a generic meta build from AoM release and it just get worse in FG. And its getting worse every patch.
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This is true. The increased player mobility and enemy movespeed negated a lot of the feeling of being ranged you get earlier in the game. But without the enemy speed increase you’d be able to kite them forever.
Weaker damage and weaker aoe comes into play because of how they end up in enemies faces late game anyway. It’s not a simple nugget to crack
It’s a Deciever wearing TWO sets with Chaos synergy from BOTH masteries and it’s barely making it to be a build capable of farming 150-170 3 times in a duration of 3 blessings with 1 Vanguard Banner (golden standard for top builds).
It’s a good build from the point of view of how it neatly it was assembled, but if you compare it to current top builds it’s probably one of the saddest and weakest ones.
Well, what do you suggest? Power creep is inevitable, it’s ARPG that gets new content release every so often. When Crate tries to manually stop power creep it results in some very controversial nerfs. One example is actually ranged meta that was nerfed into the ground in AoM while monsters got new buffs and casters and melee got new and stronger toys. And now we have this thread where everybody agrees that Ranged sucks right now. But hey, at least your elemental Luminari Purifier-Gunslinger was stopped in its tracks. And all the other ranged builds wtih him.
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[quote]This is true. The increased player mobility and enemy movespeed negated a lot of the feeling of being ranged you get earlier in the game. But without the enemy speed increase you’d be able to kite them forever.
Weaker damage and weaker aoe comes into play because of how they end up in enemies faces late game anyway. It’s not a simple nugget to crack[/quote]
Its an easy nugget to crack, just let the player play the game, rather that throw the game in the player face.
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Rah’binger has always been my favourite build, but I can’t disagree with any of this. Two sets that work perfectly together, great class synergy, incredible buffs and massive RR. And yet, it’s not even close to what meta builds can do.
I don’t want to rub salt in the wound, because I actually always wanted to make that Deceiver ever since Rah’Zin was announced. But. This is not even close some of the meme specs that I have assembled, like Cold Blade Arc Blademaster (zero dedicated items) or Fire/Vitality Defiler (dedicated set, but Defiler with two types of damages). This is how sad Chaos and ranged are. Together they synergize with more sadness it seems, lol.
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Youre thinking with builds rather that archtypes. OFC ranged suck cause we cant take advantage of our range. You play crucible a lot, you know, the best way to deal with “content” is to stick to it`s face and try to not move too far away to avoid charge triggering and long range nukes. Heck, even bodyblocking was removed from the game, now all we can do is dance around balcony on like 5 metre area.
This need to change. Rather that meaningless dmg numbers.
I am all for it, but I honestly don’t know what to do. I have said multiple times that monsters are ok and endgame is sufficiently difficult and if there are some obvious 5 minute outliers - fix them, but instead difficulty is getting bumped, old Nemeses got buffed, player’s damage got nerfed and it’s all chaos again. Instead of actual Chaos which is still mediocre even with its best specs.
Honestly, all of my top builds that I have put hours and hours into - minmaxing and squeezing out everything out of them are always on the edge of becoming incosistent with the next patch. Like god forbid you enter Crucible or Shards with an underoptimezed spec with low synergy - you will get your face kicked inside your helmet faster than you can say “Deadbuilds”.
And before I remember when you posted (like you, personally, Ptiro) build with low DA or low armor and said “DA is just a number” and you could still pilot it and everything was fine.
Chaos isn’t in good state as damage type, not only as ranged. But when you build chaos 2h build and see numbers like 30k or even more WD and wow what a monster 
But nope, in reality it sucks. But concept is still cool and mixing 2 damages is sexy.
But as @Ptirodaktill pointed ranged in GD is basically being melee with pistols/gun in your hand. But considering GD combat mechanics, I think it’s impossible to change it, that’s why we are proposing more damage 
Haha I was actually going to mention your Big Cool as an example of what does better with so much less, but then I decided not to.
Mainly because I think that build should be more a testament to what you can do than what this can’t do, if that makes sense?
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Yeah, ranged in GD doesn’t really feel ranged beyond Campaign.
Thats just sadly the nature of boss rush design. No way you not going to face tank with 4 bum rushing you all over the entire map.
POE deal with this by making 1 boss having multiple phases/mechanics. Which we have in campaign, but not in endgame content.
Really the way PoE deals with this is by making more caster bosses than attacker bosses. Very few PoE bosses “attack” you, most cast spells with a telegraphed projectile of some sort being involved.
You’re right that part of Ranged’s issue is that GD bosses have a “rush” design, but I don’t think phases/mechanics necessarily address that at all.