Reasonably powerful builds

Tell me about it! Devs only reacted to a hot topic. And that topic started right here in my thread and was moved from here by a moderator (because of off-topic).
Btw, 17 out 30 builds here don’t stack DA and I have many more candidates with and without DA stacking. But somehow people still call this DA meta and demand nerfs. I’m ok with nerfs as long as BS difficulty of 150-170 will also go, until then I’m against taking anything from players.

I personally respect you very much as one of the best build makers on the forum. But your arrogancy towards DA makes me cringe.
I’m sorry if I offended you somehow.
Also must make clear my opinion on DA: I welcome everything that helps me stomp extremely unfair difficulty of waves 150-170. I lived happily without DA before that and if devs finally come into their senses and make 150-170 adequate then sure, then nerfing DA would be just right.

And I remember pathfinders with infinite flasks :slight_smile:
If you made this example to show that DA is OP and will ruin excitement from the game, my opinion is simple: nerf ridiculous BS in 150-170 first, then nerf DA.
Zantai’s final post with changes (PTH at 60% etc) is actually fine with me. All I want is variety.

Cross-Quoting Zantai:

This is a sentiment that pops up from time to time. If you don’t engage in the discussion on the forum regarding builds, then accept whatever happens. No broken mechanic stays untouched forever.

DA stacking is not some top secret nobody wanted the devs to know about. It’s always been a potential concern. A single stat that effectively negates most game mechanics once you accrue enough of it? If you could reach 99% to all resists, we’d be having the same discussion, but somehow DA stacking is ok because somebody used it for a build.

But, as has happened before, the “meta” to stack DA has swept the community again, mostly since the max difficulty has gone up with 151-170 waves, and the issue can no longer be ignored. Instead, you are getting a Crucible that’s going to be far less punishing to most playstyles in general, and Crucible blessings that alleviate many of the reasons why DA stacking was so popular to begin with.[…]

It is just his view on the situation.
Some facts:

  • it is dev’s fault they made DA so strong in the first place
  • it is dev’s fault they implemented such BS difficulty in 150-170
  • it is dev’s fault they didn’t change anything for months afterwards
  • so now they say they knew it all the time? but no actions taken!
  • only when people started to massively express their opinion on the situation, only then devs finally showed up and declared they are attending the problem they should have fixed long ago!

And you know what? I am actually grateful to them. Yes, they are far from perfect, but better late than never. These devs work with their mistakes, not giving up on them, so GD actually stays a good game.

So few things here…in a magical fairy tale world everything would be perfect and nobody would be overworked and doing everything they can in a day.

Fact is, we have to keep working on what’s next, not just endlessly polishing what we have. I know some players would like us to polish and polish on what there is, but at some point the game isn’t going to sell anymore copies, and that degree of polish has increasingly diminishing returns on actually drawing in new players (as much as the dedicated players prefer we just worked fine-tuning things forever).

So yes, the “DA meta” has been a thing for…oh, 4 years. It comes and goes as the game is balanced and the community decides on what is “enough”. With the increased difficulty in 151-170 waves, it really doesn’t come as a surprise that it’s become popular again. Is it our fault that it was possible to begin with?

Sure, I guess? I mean…the entire game is our fault, good and bad. Game development is about picking your battles though, each and every day and there were more important battles to fight.

Was making 151-170 as hard as it is a mistake? Debatable. Depends who you ask. Some would say we haven’t added enough challenging content! Does higher difficulty exacerbate imbalances? Absolutely.

Why did we not act sooner? A combination of a couple factors. The first is time. Considering how small of a % of our players are affected by it, the amount of time we’ve spent on endgame balancing could be argued to have been excessive, and I’ve personally spent some evenings tweaking this or that in the itemization or game balance instead of relaxing because it’s ultimately something that’s important to me.

The second is that these things need time to shake out. Reacting to the first few posts about a new challenge is a sure-fire way to miss the mark on where problems lie. Players need time to try out the new content, see what works and what doesn’t and determine their own strategies. Sometimes an initial reaction might be “too hard” but as it turns out it was actually a matter of learning the strategy and adapting. Other times the opposite may be the case and we didn’t make something challenging enough (though I’d say that is rare).

So yes, we react to the community having a “massive” reaction to something. Because then that means priorities may have to shift for a while. You may not always like where priorities lie, but that’s the simple truth of it.

“Should have fixed long ago” is a pretty loaded phrase considering what we “should have done long ago” is going to be different depending on who you ask. Different things are important to different players. To somebody that doesn’t care at all about the Crucible, every moment we spend working on that is time we could have spent making new quests and content for them. Who’s right? Who deserves more of our time? I think the answer lies somewhere in-between.

I mean, to be fair, whenever the devs decide what meta it is, the game is getting worse. Grim Dawn’s meta is decided by players; some players don’t like getting hit, they go for DA and dodge stats in general. Some players love getting hit, but losing no health by that, so they build super tanky characters that don’t die but get hit often. If Crate pushed one meta, let’s say burst characters meta, where you oneshot every boss but also get oneshotted by every boss if you’re too slow, many people would quit because “this game would suck”. Right now, we can do whatever we want. It’s not a multiplayer game where you have to build something other people do. You don’t have to build DA to be good at this game (does that even matter?), you don’t have to build DA to kill every monster in the game. Wanna be a damaging paper that oneshots everything? Go for it, it is viable. Want to be a wall that also has damage? Go for it, it’s viable. Want to go retaliation? Pet build? Everything’s viable. If something is not viable, and people want it, Crate tries to buff that.

It’s not that nerfing something is an easy task; it’s easy to say “DA need a nerf”, but it’s hard to do. They’ll remove %DA from the game, we’ll sit at 2300 DA on every character, then cry that Crate fucked up the game, they bring back %DA, we’ll cry DA is OP. Even though they’ll add a cap of 60% hit chance, DA can still be fucked up. If they reduce DA’s values, we’ll need other ways to get some defense, and, most likely, if they nerf DA’s values, we’ll stop going for physique at all. I believe that even though they apply the 60% to DA, that stat will still be strong, as 40% chances to dodge damage is a incredibly high amount, as we can get free 50% from Pneumatic burst -> Shadow dance + Wraithwalkers boots.

Overall, DA is not the problem, the problem lies in players being greedy. There’s always a way to exploit the game. Look at Ravager’s pathing, we can easily kill him with no gear because we can make him stuck.
We can do literally whatever we want if Crate doesn’t restrict a particular thing. Restricting stuff just will make us cry again, because something’s restricted. Nerfed, we’ll cry. Buffed, we’ll cry. Just think of it.

Crate already nerfed DA once, but it didn’t affect the game so much. Now they’ll do it again, and now DA may die for a while and come back in few months. Then we’ll want more nerfs, but why when other’s gameplay doesn’t affect ours? Are you forced to do something others do?

I just wait till players will want DA to get buffed because every squishy build that doesn’t get much DA or defenses will be stuck in 2k DA while other builds will have 3k. That time will come, as you want DA to get nerfed over and over again.

Stop right there.
No. It’s not viable in the slightest, until very specific conditions are met. Either you are using Fever Witchblade for faster plowing, or you going up against someone like Ravager.
That’s it. Any other options simply sucks. Ranged mobs take forever to kill. Reflect is just plain broken and not functioning at all. Bigger bosses all have very high resistances to it anyway, so that’s that.
It’s obvious you haven’t played retal build, have you? Sure, we can have Hybrids, but they are not the same, utilizing way more damage, struggling to bottle up that poor OA.

Since before AoM I was gathering the strongest builds in this very thread. When new crucible waves came out do you know how many of them were able to beat it reliably? One out of 30+. So yeah, I think I have my reasons to call new waves BS and not balanced. I was very upset back then. Afterwards we adapted, tanks and kiting casters did they job. And then DA mechanics proved to be very effective and even very fragile otherwise builds can be viable thanks to it.
I sincerely hope you will balance it the right way and all kinds of builds will stay viable. That is my main wish.

It’s hard for a player to put himself on developer’s place. Thanks for clearing out these things. I play mostly crucible so it is first priority to me and obviously I wanted you to pay attention to it.

In the end I would like to thank you and other devs for the work you’re doing. We may be annoying pesky players but I believe most of us are grateful to you for the great game you’ve done and believe in you.

[QUOTE=Autentist;621138
It’s obvious you haven’t played retal build, have you? Sure, we can have Hybrids, but they are not the same, utilizing way more damage, struggling to bottle up that poor OA.[/QUOTE]

I am already making one. I know you don’t do anything vs. ranged monsters, but you don’t have to kill any ranged stuff (if it’s a non-boss). That was more like a example. But still, if retaliation wasn’t viable in any way, it would not be used at all. Right now it’s very effective vs. Ravager for example (sure, you don’t deal much damage, but can safely or somewhat safely kill him).

Good luck, fellow soldier.
It’s still a giant chore and an incredible annoyance. This is clearly not how it should be working, Crate can at least give us an option for ranged retaliation, instead of making it completely non-existant.
The thing is, it’s the ONLY thing it’s effective against. Well, Fabius too, but no one cares about him. If your build is used to kill one monster in the game, then it is not a build, but a shitty gimmick, like MQ.
For starters, they should really fix Reflect, though. It’s actually broken and disfunctional.

Thx :slight_smile:

On topic imho pure DW builds (when I say pure I mean auto attack ones w/o nukes like SS) hardly can be as good as casters, S&B and hybrid builds in current cruci, but cruci can be doable with them.
Anyway I dont think that is or should be topic, imho topic should be why current meta is shifted so much to defensive approach to building weather is it DA, shield, or chain invulnerability?
Imho one of the reason is that Crate to often and to high extent nerfed offense and offensive approach to building and finally we came to the point that offensive approach or even, I will be free to say but its arguable, 50% offensive and 50% defensive approach is not viable any more when cruci is concerned.
That should change imho and shifted back at least a bit in favor of offensive approach by buffing offensive skills and stats.
One of the reasons I got bored and quit is that I caught my self in making tank after tank spending like 10 times more time and effort on defensive options of the build. Pigeonholing build making to much toward any of those approaches is long term fun/game killer, build variety should have larger spectrum.

Little piece of advice maybe it will help you somehow.

Forget dmg reflection when trying to overcome problems whit retaliation build facing ranged enemies. Instead try to focus more on procs, on hit, on block, or even regular on attack procs if you have aura to trigger them (you can simply use seal of blades if dont it will trigger them). That approach wont give you some stellar results but in my experience is incomparably more effective than reflect dmg. Also bear in mind that retaliation build needs to have somewhat lover DA cuz you actually need to be hit by mobs, so use other layers of defense, DA stacking is worst thing you can do on retaliation build.

I completely agree with this and the answer is very simple. The only thing the AoM nemesis brought to the table is MORE DAMAGE. That’s it. You can’t outrun them, you can’t kite their attacks and they hit for ridiculous amounts of damage. Ofc meta is going to shift to a defensive approach. In comparison some of the old nemesis are also hard hitters, but once you learn their moves and how to deal with them, they are manageable. Fighting Reaper and Kuba requires no skill because there’s nothing you can do except stack crazy amounts of defensive stats and facetank them.

Uh, what? All of my ranged builds kite Kuba and Grava with such easiness that is almost ridiculous. Specially after Grava got his movement speed nerfed to hell (he’s used to be way faster). I bet i can kite Aleksander and Reaper too. Kuba goes into retard mode and suddenly starts walking very slowly for no reason.

To this day i have no clue on what people mean that you can’t kite in this game, when i do it all the time. The only enemy that is very hard to kite is the Iron Maiden and even then you can do it with some practice.

What exactly is that ranged build you’re using in 170 to kite? I’m not talking about running around waiting for dots to kill. The only ranged auto-attack builds i’m aware of are facetanking everything.

I’m talking about Phantasmal Blades, Fire Strike, Cadence and other similar skills. My PB Reaper has to kite a lot of the time because i can’t facetank everything.

And are you complaining about not being able to kite in 170? That wave literally throws 4 Nemeses at you. It’s going to be hard to kite 4 Nemeses at once.

First of all i’m not complaining, i’m just pointing the obvious. And wave 150 also has 4 nemesis, but they are all manageable and their attacks can be avoided.
MQ - don’t attack when she has aura on (not 150 but still)
Valdaran (shotgun attack with huge damage) - don’t let him get closed to you.
Zantarin - same shotgun attack, but stupidly easy to avoid.
Iron Maiden - her forcewave and charge hurt like hell, especially for builds with low armor and phys resist, but you can avoid her blitz by keeping a short distance between you and her.
The AoM nemesis basically hit hard with every attack and have the following:
Kuba - AoE attack - 40% Slow target for 3 Seconds
- Passive effect - +20% Movement Speed
Reaper - Charged attack - +35% Movement Speed
- Fire projectiles in a nova - 60% Slow target for 3 Seconds
- Buff - +20% Attack Speed, +20% Movement Speed
- Passive effect - +20% Movement Speed
All this while having 500% slow resist. If you take into account the mutators, you are basically forced to facetank them, leading to these stupidly defensive builds we’ve seen lately.
Again, i’m not complaining. I enjoy a challenge as much as the next guy. In fact these days i only play crucible, because everything else is too easy and it becomes boring after a while. But with the things i mentioned and the plethora of debuffs (rr, fumble, cc) is it any wonder we have only kiting tanks, perma invulnerability and DA stacking builds around?

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/JVl3bWM2

Have another one, a remade Fire Shar’Zul Tactician.

With new realities of DA, we don’t need to stack Watcher or Wolverine, like madmen. Enjoy the fireworks.

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/a2Ejd4vV

Another IT Tactician, this time for 2H. Again, no greens at all, enormous damage, very painful.


That’s all for now, Zhug. When the patch hits, I hope you will test them, should be working fine.

It’s hard not to come off as arrogant in such heated topics. Ones opinion triggers someone and there you go. You said JoV is a voice of reason. Any idea how many times he’s been called arrogant for over more than a year?:smiley:

I like this game, so much that I’m playing it and even recording with what others would consider game breaking lag and shit graphics.

I want things to work and all builds to feel as they are supposed to. If I want to play a DW auto attack melee(yes, it’s one of my things:) ) cause I get kicks out of more offense but with more risk then I don’t think I should have to get double the amount of defense of a S&B tank to be able to just survive crucible at snail pace, doing 40% total worse than a S&B tank. It’s all completely twisted you see…

I actually don’t care about DA itself at all. Like some people said here very well, DA is just a more visible symptom of a much wider problem, parts of which were explained by JoV. I really do not care about PTH and where Crate sets the bar whether it’s 66-60-50% or none at all. Personally if they decide on PTH I’d have stopped at 50% or something like that. I don’t care cause I am not bent on reaching that threshold at all.

To prove the above, in my first feedback on DA stacking, using 4.3K DA Belgo, I never even referred to DA as a problem, but the problems certain builds have (not all but a good number of them) if they don’t go fully mental on DA and when they do, the build becomes so twisted it’s literally no longer fun to play. It’s just a soul draining experience where a fight starts to look like a war of attrition.

In my feedback the consensus was that it’s a crucible problem, along with certain problems regarding dmg types which is another story, but not a word about DA in general. Simply nerfing DA does not fix a single issue for anyone or the things I was frustrated about. It’s the rest of Zantai’s changelog that I’m interested in and people seem to lose sight of 99% of it, and it’s just a sample. Because if they turn out to be good then players won’t have to have 4.2K DA+ with the builds that used to rely so much on it and get creative, get more dmg, whatever they want and that’s awesome!

Like JoV said, if the incentive is good enough in the other direction then most players won’t even want to go the DA route and the PTH thing becomes almost irrelevant like - Hey I made a weird build where you can’t get hit, ain’t that funny, moving on now:) Under these conditions PTH cap wouldn’t even be needed or leave it at 40-50% if Crate think’s it’s important. All I really want is that 99%

It’s a bit sad that there is almost zero competitive Nightblade melee/poison/etc. builds, that are able to do 150-170 and have enough speed and AOE for campaign and dungeon farm=(

There are poison SS WH, they just weren’t posted. JoV made a WH that was quite insane but didn’t post

I assume it’s a DG SS WH? Or is it DG DEE WH? Cause both of them are equally insane in my experience. But knowing him it could be some alien concept entirely

I think jajaja’s build can do it with some careful piloting and w/o stacking too much DA