Not entirely true, I became a much better player after following some of the builds from the forums, made me understand why ppl are using specific devotions/components/skills on certain masteries. Without them I would still probably use retaliation components on vitality casters. But when I first started playing, I went completely blind. I saw nightblade and thought “oh this is rogue from TQ and it does cold damage, cool”. And then I played a really whacky SS spellbreaker.
I became more interested in endgame when FG got released, when I got a better feeling for the game. That’s when I started reading guides.
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Yeah I played my first two chars completely blind. Then I decided to do some research and become “good” at this game, some beginner guides actually helped me alot to see why my builds sucked so hard xD
And to be fair, the beginner guides I have seen posted here in this forum do explain why they make mastery choices they did, why skills, why devotions, why those items etc. They are not “do this and you will become god”… at least that is what I am to do, explain my choices. And because i is a forum guide, people are welcome to ask questions and get answered.
And still people link them guides on first request. Which leads to dumbed-down ARPG games like Diablo 3, where you don’t even need to think how to “git gud”, which seems like a whole point of this genre of games. You start weak and make your way to demolishing hordes of enemies.
How did people play Diablo 2 back then? It also has some tricky mechanics which are not explained in the game. Grim Dawn, on the other hand, is pretty generous in providing the player with information in-game.
Mechanics guides are totally fine and great, actually. That’s what people should link.
On the Steam forum I often do link people directly to mechanics guides AND beginner build compilations, such as Nery’s. I am a strong believer in people having access to all the material they need to learn from in the hopes that eventually they will know how to begin finding that information themselves.
I merely point them in the right direction for that journey.
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That is not the guides “fault” is it? But rather a symptom of our society that we spoon fed everyone from the start. As I wrote, I always just tell people to play the game and have fun with it first. And if they think they need guides, I can point to them.
I can not really see the logical connection here. Grim Dawn as a game has not gotten dumbed down because of the existence of build guides.
Imagine the state of Grim Dawn without anyone sharing their builds. Think about it for a while.
Diablo 2 = complex game -> people whine about it -> Diablo 3 = handholding incarnate.
And I’m not really sure if a lot of people had internet back in 1999 to be able to visit diabloii or arreatsummit.
I just had a quick glimpse in Steam discussions of GD. There’s the guy asking “what’s better? RF or Forcewave?” Should we make a beginner build for that as well? Apparently people have problems/no time/energy figuring that out.
No one is forcing you to make the build, if there are others that want to, I see no harm in that.
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Diablo II was a PC game. If you had a PC in '99 then chances are high that you were part of the rush to get online along with everyone else. It was, after all, the rise of the Internet happening at that time.
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I’m also on the side of letting people experience the game themselves and feel people who have to have their hand held to make a successful character won’t learn as much if they don’t take risks and experiment. I didn’t get to where I am by blindly following other people’s guides, I had failures along the way but also learnt from said fails, got a better grip how to make characters and builds and what stats are needed and where and slowly improved over time.
Now on the other hand, I also understand that not everyone has or wants to dedicate hundreds of hours to a trial and error method of learning the game (even though this is only required for late Elite and all of Ultimate where the game really tests your build/knowledge). Some people have commitments or busy lives so may not get a ton of time to themselves so I suppose beginner guides are more valuable to them.
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Then you answer “Depends on what you wanna do”.
And then ppl are complaining about d3 beeing too dumb and we got Grim Dawn and Last Epoch.
But I can not see the connection: 1) Game is complex 2) ppl make guides to help other ppl get into that complexity 3) we get a dumbed down game as a result.
Enough ppl had to make those resources valuable.
I completely understand that, and also feel bad. I myself playing GD for an hour or maybe two, and maybe even not every day. I’m just trying to enjoy myself by actually playing it, and not reading a guide, is all. But I hear you.
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And some people get more out of their play time by having a guide next to them to consult now and then.
I have cooking as a side hobby. When I started out, I followed recipes letter by letter. Nowadays, I either use a recipe as a source of inspiration or try to modify it to my own taste. I also try to make up my own recipes and when I do a dish I really enjoy - I share it with others. I have never seen anyone complaining “wtf why this obsession with recipes, let people enjoy their cooking unspoiled” …
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This is exactly how I am with cooking… and with guides. I don’t use guides often but when I do I use them as a framework and then ad-lib from there based off my own prior experience. Which is how I hope most people would approach guides and cooking.
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and to be fair, cooking delicous food is MUCH harder than Grim Dawn 
My goal is to qualify for Norway MasterChef!
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Why you keep relating to real-life events though? GD is a game after all, and has no penalty for screwing things up. You, on the other hand, had a penalty of wasted food/money.
Hell, GD even alows for save scumming. I did that to test some builds I made without third party software like GDstash, etc (but I’m not against using them, I just don’t want to).
You waste time if you screw up, and time is money. And you bought the game for at least some money. And your gaming PC is not free either.
I have other hobbies as well, gym and drawing which are not expensive as cooking of course. And you have to eat anyway so even if the food tasted like crap, it will still give you the nutrients.
Like wtf a book on how to draw? https://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Dummies-Brenda-Hoddinott/dp/0470618426 drawing should be creative and expressive! Why should people use guides and classes on drawing? (I have used maaaaany guides on drawing tbh because I wanna git gud at it) Bob Ross is a demon for showing people how to make paintings!
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Wasted time can easily be seen as a “penalty”.
And really games at their root are usually used as teaching tools, often under the guise of “fun”. The parallels between how you approach cooking and a game are close enough that there is little difference between whether you consider one less real than the other. The principle is still the same.
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I thought the point of any game was to “waste” some time in an enjoyable fashion. And if for a small amount of them it’s more fun to read about them (like Dwarf Fortress, but that game is way more complex than real life even), the others, like GD, are more so when actually played? Or is it just me who enjoys playing games, and not trying to relate them to real life endeavours?
Also, I should’ve probably point that out in the very beginning: I just don’t want for GD 2 (if it happens) to be a quest marker simulator with the game playing itself.
That’s how we use them NOW - in most cases. It is a business after all, big money business. But all you have to do is ponder for a moment how “games” came about to begin with and it becomes quite obvious they were primarily used as a means of teaching children things they needed to learn without them realizing they were actually learning something. Naturally, not all games these days will fit that notion anymore - but games are more closely related to teaching people “things”.
Do note: when I refer to “games” I mean all forms of games, not just video games.
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Gaming for me is a serious hobby, just as cooking, drawing and lifting weights to become a muscular viking. Some people “just go to the gym”. I spend like 3h / day on average gaming and I try to get better and learn more. And also try to share my builds with others just as what I do with my recipes and drawings…
As mentioned several times, people are different and have different goals and way to learn and enjoy themselves.
If you think you get more out of a game playing blind, then so be it I don’t care.