I haven’t been active on this forum, at least de facto, cause practically I’ve been observing what’s goin’ on here and there for months. So yeah, a quick “Hi there!” and off we go with the stuff I wanted to mention.
My overall experience with the game is something around 200 hours. Not bad, not terrible, could’ve been better but my gut tells me it’s a good time to say a few words I’ve been keeping to myself for quite a while.
Regarding “veteran mode”. From my perspective, veteran mode is kinda wasting itself as another difficulty tuner without significant gameplay impact apart from obviously bloated HP bars, more champs spawns and that small XP bonus. In the end, high-end players can get XP-boosting loot that’s simply making veteran even more obsolete. Low end gameplay (which I consider is up to level 50) simply isn’t worth the challenge of getting additional tension during progression. Also some more item drops are worthless as most of players already have chosen starter items base in the stash. So in the end, veteran feels as something additional that game could’ve lived without. On the other hand, newbie is gonna stick to something easier in order to grasp the basics of the game. Here are my propositions how to improve it:
Currently, veteran offers challenge that is too predictable. I really loved the idea of Dangerous and Treacherous Domains and I believe they should be implemented as additional factor that plays a major role in exploration on veteran. They give the gameplay additional thrill. Same as those elite-spawning shrines. Of course, the more agonizing debuffs for the player and buffs to the enemy, the better.
Veteran would be perfect, if it’d step back from bloated HP bars and instead, it’d sort of “dungeonize” the whole world. It could work by making radial-based Dangerous Domains in some interesting spots above the ground and adding corresponding spawns (even bosses?). I could also make caverns, cellars, non-dangerous undergrounds as Dangerous Domains. That’d make relatively “docile” areas a little bit more wild and worth exploring.
My proposition, unfortunately, breaks mechanics a little bit cause (most likely) all players would want new veteran mechanics on elite and ultimate difficulties. So that’s… yeah, adding mechanics from normal-veteran to higher difficulties would be necessary.
Regarding dungeon-like areas. I LOVE THEM. I beg you, make more of those and add them as secret areas or any kind of exploration rewarding trophies. The more possibilities for mid-tier and high-end gameplay, the better.
Regarding multiplayer. Now, spicing up veteran shouldn’t only affect Cairn to the previously explained extent. Changes can be done in regards to dungeon-crawler areas known as Treacherous Domains. They’re difficult. Yeah. I admit that. But they could be even more deadly. How about making Treacherous Domains something as “Forgotten Domains” on veteran? Making them not only a challenge to everybody but also forcing players to band together in order to finish 'em? Of course, some players will oppose the idea but that’s fine. Just let them finish those solo but they have to face the fact that it’s gonna be rough. Anyway, I believe the idea of “player raids” we find in mmorpg games is worth giving a try in GD. The necessity to prepare for the final adventure, gathering resistance potions, healing materials, various buffs, discussing tactics for bosses and areas. This is the sort of thrill that drives the community.
General thoughts. This game was always positively unpredictable for me. Whether it’s dungeons, secret areas or some secret, class-related quests, I’ve had so much fun with this. I believe this is the sort of depth that hack n slashes require in order to make them not only playable but actually lore-wise and mechanically intriguing. It’s the psychology of seducing the players that plays major role. It’s the idea of creating the sensation of “Just another piece of corner in that dungeon and I’ll go to sleep”. So generally, my idea is “Give us more Grim Dawn in Grim Dawn”.
Pardon me for a lengthy post but I guess it has to stay that way. I hope it’s not too much of “theorycrafting”. There have been tons of things I thought abot in regards to GD, so… yeah…
I think the problem is you’re seeing Veteran as a separate difficulty which it’s not; it’s just a slightly harder version of Normal which is why you can switch betwen the two at any time. What you change on Veteran would also be in the world on Normal. Short of making Veteran a separate difficulty on it’s own I’m not sure it would be possible to change things as you suggest.
Aye. That may be the case. Most likely it’d require a substantial rework of difficulties. I can imagine it at this point. Also, I am fully aware that such overhaul is… uhm, financially demanding. It’d be economically wrong to release such overhaul without significant marketing campaign and if that wouldn’t make company any profit, it’d be a major failure. Also, since the case of third expansion is closed as “not going to happen”, can I assume that such idea may be considered as a potential addition to GD2?
You’d have a better chance of that happening. I can tell reading your ideas there probably isnt a chance in hell of any of those things being done now. They are too extreme and pulling a move like that would probably upset people.
Not when the single player is the main focus. Multiplayer is really just an afterthought and only exists so that people can play in co-op. Any hint of content being made with multiplayer in mind would be seen as counter-productive given the intent of the game.
Yeah, that’s what I’ve been thinking as well. I decided to post it anyway cause maybe there’s a chance that it’ll be used as some sort of inspiration for anything. If not, whatever, I had fun writing it anyway
I can see where’s that coming from. Hack and slash games were always a little bit hermetic type of genre. That focus on solo or co-op features were always intrinsic to those games. It’s no different with GD. Why I proposed such idea with mmo-ish style of gameplay, is to add a little bit of avant garde to the game. I believe GD already did that with it’s substantial emphasis on story, dungeon crawling areas, secret quests, secret areas and interesting character developement.
I figured it would only be fair to comment directly on what I didn’t like about your suggestions. Mostly all your thoughts on Veteran are what concerns me.
What concerns me here is that you 100% downplay Veterans difficulty. You completely ignore it, in fact, and instead focus on the “bloated hp bars”. You absolutely can get ganked far easier in Vet than Normal and it isn’t because of their health bars. Your resistances actually matter in Veteran. They matter considerably less in Normal. We also don’t know what kinda build view point you are coming from but if I had to guess I would say you played mostly ranged or pet builds - where it’s easier to get away from alot of damage.
Just going to point out that here, again, you mention the “bloated hp bars”. As for the rest of it, it sounds an awful lot like you are wanting them to add the modifiers across the entire difficulty. Mmm. Maybe it’s just me but that doesn’t feel like it’s going to be as popular as you might think. I know players that don’t even like them even in the dungeons.
Other than that, I could get behind “MOAR” dungeons. I’m always down for them adding more content to the game.
That was my general… mhm… problem. Perhaps I overcriticized it for the sake of proposed idea. My build view point is based upon… well, literally all types of builds. I played melees and ranged, rarely pet builds. My main is actually melee.
Aye, I can imagine there are players who like things… let’s say cleaner. I’ve seen somebody ranting on that big interface part giving you information about debuffs and buffs in dungeons. Perhaps it’s easy to get a wrong idea from my writing, cause the whole thing is quite extreme and big, thus poorly explained in a mechanical sense. I never imagined to changed “Bloated HP bars” on “Bloated Dangerous Domains”, cause that’d be pointless. My vision was based upon notion that perhaps there’s a chance to enrich the whole thing by adding something totally new; not necessarily flood the game with elite mobs and boss spawnfest. There are mods for that kind of thing and I personally dislike them.
Well, you have to consider the fact that the rogue-like dungeons are considered optional Challenge dungeons. Optional being key here. They are meant to be side areas you don’t have to do if you don’t want to and they are meant to be more difficult. Your idea of making entire difficulties apply these modifiers (which are random I might add) across the whole game takes away from that optional difficulty and homogenizes it across the board.
You just turn everything into the “same ol’, same ol’”. I don’t think it’s going to be popular for the average player to start up a game in Main Campaign and have random debuffs applied to you out the gate - some of which can be severe.
As an optional thing you could enable in options maybe? I could more see that - but not for regular gameplay. Crate has to factor in the majority when they do things and try to anticipate keeping the game playable enough for most people.
My 2 cents on Veteran is that it seems appropriately challenging at the beginning, but then by level 50 or so (around Act IV if I’m doing everything) I start to become godlike in terms of power and resilience. The heart-pounding threat of danger is just completely gone. There are times I wish I could switch to Elite on the fly the same way I could between Normal/Veteran but I know that’s not possible.
Same as veteran difficulty. That’s my point. To make that optional content stay optional but at the same time let it be expanded to the point of having it’s own niche. I have never suggested that this should be some sort of core mechanics. Hell, I never thought how this could be implemented mechanically to the game. For that, I’d have to write a big project, certainly not on the forum but as a text document, explaining all the technicalities. I left the idea here so maybe guys from CE will use it in the way they like it. So yeah, like I said, Main Campaign doesn’t have to be affected by such radical changes.
Apparently I went into Malmouth around level 60 due to my completionist mania for quests and secrets. But yeah, my ritualist was a wrecking ball for veteran mobs.
Yeah, but we’re discussing veteran difficulty as an addition to the game. So I don’t think that analogy is valid if you consider that “Normal” is a core mechanic. You can’t remove Normal. It has to stay the way it is cause it’s a bread and butter for any kind of HnS game. Difficulty spice-up additions are different. They’re unnecessary but certainly worth adding and expanding.
True but Veteran is supposed to just be a “halfway” point between Normal and Elite and in terms of difficulty I feel they nailed that halfway point pretty nicely. Being a “veteran” and able to construct a build that can succeed in Veteran leaves you much better prepared for the switch-over into Elite - which by that point if you are doing well in Vet that undoubtedly means you’ve been taking care of your resistances and Elite will have considerably less impact upon you.
I really don’t think there is anything to be gained by adding on to Veteran. It was implemented while still in Early Access. We didn’t have Elite or Ultimate then and their answer to that for those who were wanting something with a little more difficulty was Veteran.
I like it where it’s at and almost a year ago they actually “fixed” Veteran to be difficult again. In the years since release from 2016 to 2019 it had actually slipped waaaay down in difficulty due to the additions of the expansions. They brought it back up again closer to its pre-release days and it feels good now.
Oh yeah. I remember that time when veteran was easy. I mean, I played it as if it was “normal-normal”.
Generally I see what’s the problem with ideas I propose. They’re kinda off the track at this stage of the game. It’s more of a fantasy how perhaps things could’ve been. Not that they’re bad by themselves. They’re not. It’s those mechanics I mentioned that keep me playing GD and simultaneously totally forgetting Diablo 3, or rarely touching PoE.
Yea, I’m not “wholly” against the idea per se. Like I said above I wouldn’t mind it as an optional toggle you could flip on - kinda out of the way but “there” still. I’d probably even give it a go from time to time.
Me on the other hand would like them removed completely from campaign and only left in Crucible and Shattered Realm. So you’ll find conflicting opinions on this too.
I played base game and AoM first and installed FG only after completing those. It’s FG that adds “Domains” and they still feel out of place for me in campaign. Two reasons:
A huge “Dangerous Domain” banner telling me “You better watch out duuude! This place is reeaally scary!” is uneccesary. I get an impression I encountered some timed, bonus event.
I don’t get the point of mutators. Monsters, spawn points etc. are randomised anyway, so sessions are not exactly same even without mutators. Those modifiers are thankfully not strong enough to pull the carpet from under my feet and often I don’t even check what they do. And I won’t restart my session when I see unfavourable ones anyway. Thus I would rather not have them.
Domains appear to me as an arcade element which fits modes like Crucible/SR, but not main campaign.
