Relic feedback thread

I agree with all the sentiments here, unfortunately. I know that can look like a cop-out one liner but it’s true.

And Heaph, Chthon’s point about Malediction was why it was on the list. It wasn’t bad but the overlap is weird and one generally just took meditation over it. I wasn’t hoping for a buff so much as as sideways tweak in identity.

@Chthon I really don’t know about Salvation. It’s hard to say, but I’m still skeptical since it’s a relic slot and that’s very valuable. It’s a lot of stats to give up for hp regen but at least it gives rather solid DA. It’s essentially competing with something like Menhir’s Bastion which is amazing, but for entirely different builds. Maybe if it had a gross amount of health on it too? Like 2000? Help make you less vulnerable to burst and stay alive longer to let hp regen do its work. Before that it needs testing.

But as I’ve said before I understand Z’s hesitance to do any large buffs to hp regen items because they run the risk of spiraling out of control and suddenly making certain builds near unkillable. Especially on the %hp regen side.

Someone would actually have to start testing hp regen builds lol.

Anyway Zantai please please please give these another consideration. As I promised if you buff them and they just end up displacing another relic’s existence across all builds or becoming OP we’ll let you know and they an be toned down. Relics are cool and expensive, we’d like to use these in the end game.

Chthon I very much like your Annihilation suggestion.

Oh god pretty plz Z this is really what Azrakka’s Epoch needed, both to complete the theme and to be actually viable than Serenity. Otherwise without some defensive aspect the tornado does next to no damage and you just outright die. Even Doom is better for the EOR build that this relic supposed to support.

I’ve made quite a few hybrid builds some time ago, which I enjoyed. Primal Instict was always part of those builds as hybrid is usually tanking while pets do damage or adding to pet damage and hoping you can kill before you need to kite. Also primal has some helpful stats for a the hybrid battle build.

BUT…as it happened, none of the hybrids included Shaman. It was extremely disappointing to always waste that +1 to skill for every build that did not have shaman.

As far as pure pet builds, I don’t think the +1 to all skills will make it a new favorite. Primals require a proc to pump them out and maintain the number. These pets are fairly fragile and need constant replacement due to limited lifetimes. Often pure pet builds are tight on proc skills.

Further, although that +1 to all might be very attractive to pet builds (often tight on points), the competitors (Dirge=tanker pet or Bysmiel=really good pet boosts/proc) are potent enough to not lose ground.

TDLR: I think +1 should be for all classes. It makes no sense to me that this bonus is isolated to Shaman simply due to the name (Primal).

FINALLY something I agree with. Malediction is extremely strong but only on builds that can afford losing +1 (green builds). Sadly, it was rendered obsolete even for those builds (except maybe witch hunter, EDIT: big MAYBE, all that vitality flat from occultist might be even worth using two oathkeepers items, dunno) by the Meditation + Treacherous Means combo that is undefeated for high end acid involving oathkeeper.

Oh, and it did need that buff. Attack speed is always needed by a-atackers.

I am missing Deathstalker on the list.

I never have seen any build which uses it: No Acid, no bleeding, no physical build. No skill boni, no +1…and I really like it…:frowning:

Granted, there aren’t many, but Tz_Tz’s Bloody Knights come to mind.

Or Mad_Lee’s Poison Paradise Witchhunter. But you’re right, it would be cool to see this relic used more often. I’ve never used it, but I would like to.

I am surprised by the statement that HP regen can make builds nearly unkillable. I am not disagreeing with you, I know with decent HP regen you can survive things that you’re not meant to. But in my experience we usually need to focus heavily on it. So I doubt if it would be too game breaking to have this relic solely focus on %HP Regen and it adds to build diversity (I think).

But I do agree with you on that testing is needed, I recall @Ceno made a build focused on HP regen back in vanilla. Maybe he can chip in.

@Rhylthar I am kinda divided on Deathstalker. Back when RR used to be a bitch to get that was a good relic on some builds. It even helped me with some whacky concepts. Lee and Tz posted good builds that were linked above.
But now I think we have decent amount of RR sources which kinda makes me wonder on whether the the RR aspect of the relic needs a slight buff to make it more appealing (3-5% more RR)
Btw if they add %Pierce Resistance to that relic it’d help with build diversity (more love for Pierce Hybrids)

In vanilla I was able to reach around 5-8k Health/sec (depending on procs). With AoM/FG (actually just AoM; don’t think FG changed much) this was increased to values as high as 17k/sec. The result of this is being able to park a character in Alkamos’s room and literally go afk while he ticks out from Retaliation…for three hours.

Health Regen is godawful in Grim Dawn. You need around 2k hp/s to start negating non-reflected/IT DoTs universally, which is actually reasonably attainable but it’s nothing more than a gimmick. What you sacrifice to go beyond that is…well…everything other than resists, because literally everything gives resists on the side these days. I would be very impressed if any build can exist that has 4k hp/s with 1800%+ Damage anywhere. 4k hp/s still isn’t anything notable that’ll keep you alive in a pinch, but that’s kind of my point. By the time you go from “worthless” to “pretty bad”, you’ve already sacked your damage.

This isn’t even to speak of the fact that Health Regen alone is not enough to save you, even in unreasonably high volumes. Without a healthgate mechanic, oneshots are still entirely possible without overcapping resists, getting good DA/Armor, and having a sufficient health pool as well. In other words, you need to be like every other character in the game to play a Health Regen build…for literally no reward for doing so.

Furthermore, even beyond the realm of a strict oneshot, Health Regen has diminishing returns with how it handles many instances of damage in a short span of time. For instance, let’s say you regenerate 100% of your health pool every second, sacrificing a lot of resources to get there. Grim Dawn is fast-paced enough that a pack of enemies can overpower that regen overtime, perhaps dealing 110% of your health in one second without outright oneshotting you (thus leaving you somewhere around 90% health) and killing you soon enough anyways. Upping your regen to 105% Max Health/second, while undoubtedly a very costly investment, still does not save your character’s life. Regen is non-scalable; once it’s been bested, you are guaranteed to die if the situation does not change (e.g., an enemy doesn’t die first).

TL;DR don’t bother with Regen in Grim Dawn. It’s not mechanically worth it, and it never will be.

It’d be trash if it only provided regen bonuses. Regen builds can get a ton of regen with or without that relic. Why would they want more of what they already have? No, they’d want something that enables them to actually kill things so their regen can sustainably outpace the encounters the character faces.

This came out far longer than I wanted it to, so sorry about that. But regen has been on my mind the last few days, while I’ve been playing more of other ARPGs (D3/PoE, namely). I haven’t seen a single ARPG get regen right. I wouldn’t expect that trend to suddenly stop any time soon.

I disagree that it can never be worth picking. I agree that the hpregen items would need to come with some other useful stats, like every other item.

He may be right that you’ll never go full hp hegen but just as a supplement it could make kiters have a much more comfortable time, theoretically

As Ceno posted you sacrifice too much in dps. On my health regen commando my main source of damage is using “brutal shield slam” to proc “meteor shower”. In AoM it took me 2 minutes roughly to kill Lokarr . Health regen in FG is higher but probably not worth it if you want decent kill times. I suppose picking Commando also means you have limited RR options as well but Soldier also gives you the most regen out of all classes so…

It does have some fun elements, you can run freely through aether damage. If you’re stunned, frozen or petrified you’ll still gain your life back. It only delays the inevitable. I haven’t really played through much of FG content with this so don’t know if I can outburst the sandstorms leading to the “Crate of Entertainment” boss.

That part I agree with and have mentioned previously. Hp Regen items devotions etc often come with little to nothing else. I don’t mind a dps hit but usually it’s a huge fucking hit.

Regardless I’m not advocating to make hp Regen competitive in clear time builds. I’d like to see it noticeably slow your times down but make you more comfortable while kiting bosses around in SR.

I got little experience with regen but even a little regen is useful for kiting out sticky situations with no null or flat dmg absorb. But even Bat with no conversion on a good proccer is better than all regen you can viably get. Wendigo Totem at 12/12 gives you more regen than you can ever stack without ruining your build.

My problem with regen is that Behemoth cooldown is hilariously long. And this is the only way serious regen can be achieved viably. In this game something that’s off half the time at random cannot be the base of your sustain. Want to make regen better? Give Behemoth Dying God’s uptime.

Regen focused relic will be as useless as what Ceno described as regen focus builds. Unless it’s a great relic that also gives a lot of regen.

  • Relic - Annihilation: added 8% Energy Cost Reduction, removed Cunning. Granted skill is now a proc triggering off attacks, damage and cooldown adjusted accordingly.
  • Relic - Bane: added 4% Offensive Ability and 4% Attack damage Converted to Health, removed Offensive Ability. Added Attack damage Converted to Health on the skill proc.
  • Relic - Necrosis: granted skill now reduces all non-physical Resists by -10%
  • Relic - Nemesis: increased Defensive Ability Reduction applied by the pet to 150
  • Relic - Oblivion: granted skill is now spammable, values adjusted accordingly
  • Relic - Uroboruuk’s Reaping: increased damage on the granted skill
  • Relic - Yugol’s Hunger: increased damage on the granted skill

The 1.1.4 changes to relics in this thread. I will be removing Annihilation, Uroboruuk’s Reaping, Oblivion and Bane from the thread. The rest I think needs further testing to verify if the changes were sufficient.

edit I might have removed oblivion prematurely, but I had to imagine that getting the skill as a spammable opens some unique stuff up for chaos builds?

Edit: Caveat that if Oblivion is still not good enough +1 all skills on it seems fine. It’s a chaos relic and chaos is a weaker damage type.

But why? Uroboruuk’s Reaping, Oblivion and Bane are still top-tier trash, that little changes does almost nothing for this relic

Because I want to belieeeeve. Uroboruuk I thought had some niche use. Spam Oblivion we will have to see. Bane I think can fall into “good enough I guess” category maybe. Anyone else have opinions on these?

Uroboruk - still worse that “morality”
Oblivion - do we get at least 1 person in known universe that prefer to use oblivion than eldritch pact or solael decimal?
Bane? We all know that inq got only one relic, and it is not a bane

What do you propose for each then?

Hey, i’m not a gamedesigner, i just saw that this relic are still don’t get his individuality, and i wrote about it

Fine I put those back on list. Pending feedback and testing.

Salvation is one of my favorite Relics. I 110% support removing the %phys and damage in favor of a massive boost to the HP regen qualities and proc chance. This is an extremely fun Relic as is but could be SO much more fun with these improvements as it would finally make several of my HP regen builds a lot more viable in end-game content.