Relic feedback thread

Some relics listed in this thread may already be addressed in the playtest, but as this is a public thread it will be discussed based on their current state.

The goal is to find relics that have no place in end-game builds, that can be buffed without displacing other relics from being used in the end-game. Also worthy of mention are relics already a bit seen in the end-game, but can be tweaked to be more appealing to other builds/more diverse use cases yet still won’t not displace any other relic when doing so. Should any of our suggestion buffs be implemented and it only achieves the displacement of a previous best relic slot choice, thus creating power creep, we’ll admit it here and get the buff reverted/reduced/changed.

To rephrase: Ideally every relic lvl 60+ would have its own niche/purpose or build to fit on. I understand Z may not feel every relic needs to see end-game use, but I think we can agree that that’d be more ideal. Especially for the lvl 70+ relics.

Salvatation (?)
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1495
It got buffed a couple times since I put this on the list as “the worst relic” and hp regen has seen improvements in a bunch of other places as well. People will need to experiment. At this point if hp regen isn’t working I’m starting to suspect it’s a lack of hp regen getting enough resists from the same sources, because the numbers keep getting better.

Scourge
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1501
Given what the relic, a non +skills relic, competes with… the 45 degree 3 target maximum on the skill is very very stingy. With a 2.4 second item (not affected by CDR) cooldown it already guarantees the granted ability can’t be abused, so please let it be good. I don’t think a shorter cooldown is the answer either because it’d just interrupt our auto attack stuff more.

Oblivion
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1505

I originally didn’t include it on the list because a couple people told me they liked the relic but if I’m honest with myself I strongly disagree that it’s sufficent, and agree with superfluff here.

It’s a chaos relic without +skills. I’d suggest adding +15% to human dmg to match the +15% dmg to chthonic. I’d also increase the flat and % chaos on it. I’d happily trade the spirit for DA if we can’t just be given DA without sacrificing something else… but if you really want to make this non plus skill relic feel unique, you could make it the only other mythical relic to have phys resist on it instead of that chaos resist.

Superfluff points out that Ignaffar’s Combustion is even better than it on non inquisitor builds, like Rah’zin builds. I love that it has fumble/impaired but it’s just not enough to compete yet.

Blademaster’s Talisman
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1516
Compare to the “lesser” Bladedancer Talisman: https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1493
It needs to:

  • Inherit that slow resist, it’s very important.
  • Get a damage bump (both base and granted WPS skill). This baby is competing with +skill relics and it’s a bit on the weak side.

Plunderer’s Talisman
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1517
Inquisitor + inq and plenty of itemization sources of DW ability makes it useless, lack of resists, OA or DA.

Necrosis
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1503
Now it does less RR, but gives RR to all non physical? Is there something that’s very happy with this. You’d think it might open something or another up? Needs 1.1.4 feedback.

Solael’s Decimation
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1510

This is literally just mini/worse Eldritch Pact. I might get crucified for some of my suggestions for it but I see a few options with the first option being the simplest and most lame:

  1. Just buff the dmg on this relic to make it more closely equal to eldritch pact.
  2. Swap some of its bonuses with Eldritch Pact and make this the more defense based chase, since it’s on being hit and make Eldritch Pact the heavily offensive option.
  3. Or the reverse, buff Solael’s Decimation as the offensive option (does match the name better I guess) and nerf Eldritch Pact’s offensive side but buff its defensive side.
  4. The coolest option is to add significant chaos retaliation and % retaliation to Solael’s Decimation and drizzle chaos retaliation build support in future patch changes.
  5. Ceno points out you could just add 15% lifesteal or so to the proc since the cooldown is low and it becomes a budget Ulzuin’s wrath. This is also one of the neater ideas.
  6. Ya points out energy regeneration here would help Scythe of Tenebris spin to win builds exists.

I think figuring out a way to divide Solael’s Decimation and Eldritch Pact so one is clearly more for surviving and one does substantially better DPS would help these relics co-exist.

Korvaak’s Deception
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/8221
Please please please we’re begging you give this the Nidalla’s Outbreak treatment and turn the attack into some sort of proc, even if it means nerfing it. Nobody wants to use this granted ability currently. Fire/Chaos dmg don’t really need a mini-nuke and it’s clunko to use. Changing it to a proc would also be highly popular with the community.

Oleron’s Wrath
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1513
This relic is in a tough spot Z because physical builds just take Doom and bleed builds just take Massacre. I’m not sure what you do to buff this relic without displacing the other two, so you’d have to think about it, because it’s not a BAD relic. Maybe add DA since none of the other soldier relics have that.

Soldiers are usually fine on the OA side (not that we don’t like the 50 OA), Doom offers higher base dmg on the relic, a resist, and decent % armor. It’s nice that Oleron’s Wrath automates dmg with a proc on attack, and I don’t think it’s far behind.

If anyone else in the community has a bright idea they are confident can be done to this relic without displacing others, please do chime in.

Azrakaa’s Epoch (?)
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/11749
It got impaired aim on the skill which is definitely a nice little utility. Can people try this thing out more? I reckon if it’s still “sub par” it’s just a matter of the dmg on the skill? Or the frequency of tornados?

Nemesis
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1497
The offensive stats on the relic itself could just use a bump up. The pet is actually fine offensively, but it would be lovely if it was invulnerable or at least tankier via improving its base resists. It does NOT need a weaker version of Deathstalker’s aura.

Impurity
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/8216
It’s good for leveling spellbinders, but by the time you reach end-game the cooldown on the proc makes it too weak to compete. But you can compare it to Eldritch Pact: https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/8222 to see its deficiencies.

Chthon’s suggestions:

  • Add %Damage to Undead, it’s a small bonus that helps.
  • Reduce the CD on the granted skill to 1.5 Seconds to make the proc more reliable. Adjust the values of the skill if required.
  • Bump the %Aether Damage by 25% more damage and increase the flat Aether Damage by 8 more Aether Damage

Primal Instinct (?)
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1509
The Swarmlings have more hp AND attack speed at this point. Don’t know how much they were buffed. Need pet players to chime in.

Uroboruuk’s Reaping (?)
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/8226
The skill’s been buffed twice now. How’s it doing? Are people finding any builds where they like mixing the skill into their rotation?

Vengeance
https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/8217
Compare to the superior Avenger Relic. (And even given that the Avenger relic is superior I’m not sure Avenger sees use competing against eye of the storm, maybe consider a % retaliation buff to go with the flat retaliation for Avenger, so it really helps dawnseeker out which I’ll complain for later)

Admittedly one of the more debatable relics on this list. The stats are good but the activation on the proc is a little iffy. I’d suggest bumping the activation rate by 5% or changing it even to 25% chance on being hit, and that alone might prompt players to experiment with it more so we can get more feedback on it. I haven’t tested this enough to give a good answer of how lacking I feel the relic is, but currently I don’t think it’s off by too much.

Inquisitor relics are competing with the mighty Ignaffar’s combustion after all, but at least Vengeance is for pierce inquisitors so it has a slightly easier time getting use by lack of alternatives.

Other Balance Threads I’m managing and updating with each update:
Torso and Helm feedback
One-hander feedback
Two-hander feedback
Shields and Caster Off-Hand feedback
Jewelry Slot feedback
Leg and foot armor feedback
Non-set shoulders and gloves feedback

Empowered Relics

I won’t post my thoughts on these because I haven’t gone into enough depth with testing them. But I am decently sure some empowered relics aren’t chosen at all in favor of others. I’ll let the community chime in here if they want because I’m not sure anyone cares XD.

Personally, I would like a movement speed buff - for some reason they are VERY slow. Also, I wonder if “Lives for 25 Seconds” part is necessary - they are designed to die often anyway and it never frustrates me because of passive summoning.

While skeletons actually need HP boost, I’m fine with swarmlings. Especially if I’ll be able to see how many are summoned.

In my experience they have a tendency to die in meaningful fights before they can really do enough. Sigatrev will have tested it more than me so hopefully he chimes in here. They also are sorta slow, that’s true.

I would like to add Ulzuins pyroclasm to this list https://www.grimtools.com/db/items/1502

Please change this bonus fire resist it’s infuriating to end up with a char with +150-200% fire res overcap and -15% cold res. Change it to elemental or literally anything.

Mini rant: I never understood why tf almost every item themed after some damage type should have a shitton of resist to this damage type, it’s especially bad when you use non-set legs.

Another good feedback!

I have something to say.Most of the relics without class bonus are in tough spot,cause they directly compete against +1 one and Serenity and Ardor.

Scourge doesn"t need less CD,it needs no CD and auto attack status.It will fuel cold or vitality Reapers for example.Ofc WD will be decreased.

Impurity is actually good relic,I dare to say.

Oleron,yes hard to be picked.

Bane-the proc CD was reduced not a long time ago,but is hard to neglect Ignaffar combustion for Inquisitor build.Maybe add aether support?

Nemesis,I guess cold auto-attackers want Niddala and casters are Arcanist or Inquisitor and they have better options like Combustion or Iskandra.

You can add Oblivion + the skill it has to the list.

Combustion is better than it on a non inquis build like Rah

I’d actually love it if all legendary relics gave + to skills. I thought about +2 to single mastery, and otherwise +1 to all skills (for all relics), but then it’d be kind of fucked up at some point.

I personally don’t like picking relics that don’t give + to skills, so every single one that doesn’t give + to skills is trash to me.

About the thread:

  • Scourge could use +1 to nightblade, imo.
  • Necrosis could use a rebalance over all. Maybe make it a Curse of Frailty, but weaker and that reduces all resists? 15% per damage type, damage in active could be reduced to half or removed.
  • Annihilation’s drop rate (the meteor, I mean) could scale with casting speed. Would be way more useful and people would actually start picking it
  • Azraaka’s Epoch could use + to Oathkeeper or % bleed damage to base stats
  • I don’t even know what to say about Salvation, it’s probably the weirdest relic ever.

Other relics are either considered fine by me or so bad that I don’t even want to think about them. :stuck_out_tongue: Or just don’t have bonuses to skills, yeah.

+1 to everything.

Annihilation in particular seems like a relic that doesn’t know what it wants to be. Flat damage + a mediocre spell with very long cd and god awful stats. If it’s a casters relic, remove flat damage and add some nice stats, buff Meteor spell maybe 5 fold so people can start even considering taking it. If it’s an auto-attacker relic, then fine, remove that spell, auto-attackers don’t need it, add some useful stats like OA/Slow Res/Chtonian damage, maybe a wps.

It took a lot of feedback to get it to have % burn dmg at least:D

But yes, it tries both melee and caster and is great at neither

+1

Also for Blademasters talisman cost to change % phys/ele dmg to all damage. Possible % weapon damage on wps incresis.

Agreed.

Just Primal Instinct feels odd standing next to Annihilation or Necrosis. Primal is a very good relic, in some situations the best offensive pet shaman relic. What the swarmlings need is run speed at the cost of damage - with this almost everyone agrees.

Also this should be changed

Necrosis (Granted by Item)
Invoke a debilitating curse upon your enemies, causing their flesh to rot and their senses to slow.

to this

Necrosis (Granted by Item)
Invoke a debilitating curse upon your enemies, unbeknownst that it has all kinds of rr except the one you need, as your mind envelops in confusion, realizing that you just gave up on +1 to all skills.

I have incorporated some of the feedback this thread has received into the opening post whenever I agreed with it. I will continue to do so.

I think Ulzuin’s pyroclasm is pretty strong for burn builds even without the fire resist. Think of the fire resist as sprinkles on top of your ice cream cone. Z has outright mentioned before that sometimes your option is enjoy your sprinkles or get none. While on armor slots getting excess amounts of resists can be annoying when you’re lacking others, I think this is fine.

I am not trying to be dismissive, just giving a point of view on it.

Thanks! Impurity isn’t bad but my Eldritch Pact comparison still proves my point I think. And I think it’s completely fair to ask for an Impurity buff since spellbinders are no longer nearly as dominant as they used to be.

I heavily disagree with this. While from a design perspective it can be difficult to make non+skill relics compete with +skill relics without displacing them, I think this is a very interesting design challenge that opens up a lot of potential for the non+skill relics to feel distinct.

After mulling it over I think you’re correct. I will tweak that section of my post and move it further down on the list. I think I will try to order the list a bit differently as well, with worse stuff or stuff maaaaybe addressed a bit in next patch lower on the list.

edit I have edited the order of my original post to make stuff before Azraaka’s Epoch to be the relics we’re hungry for changes on and pretty certain about, and the stuff after Azraaka’s Epoch to be the stuff that’s more on the cusp of already being fine.

I feel like Solael’s Decimation could do with a bit of a boost to make it a little more competitive with Eldritch Pact, which seems to be almost universally picked over Solael’s. The OA on Solael’s is nice, but other than that it doesn’t offer much. The proc itself is also weaker, triggers when hit rather than on attack, and can only affect 5 enemies max.

A damage increase on the proc would be…fine, I guess, but I’d rather see something a bit more interesting. 10% Chaos and/or Vitality RR on the proc, maybe? Or perhaps something else entirely?

Solael relic is pretty good. Eldritch’s proc is better but Solael’s also strong. With many enemies it procs more than Eldritch and is 360 degrees, not just one-directional.

Problem is that Eldritch is just better. And in most cases there is no reason to pick Solael. Occultist builds struggle with health and elemental res just as much as oa. And even when oa is critically low it’s still usually better to look for it elsewhere than give up on Eldritch.

Solution is simple. Give it something fresh. Cdr? Rr? I know! Gamechanging energy sustain! This would allow many chaos builds like Tenebris to thrive, finally.

Or ADctH, like this was made on Thread of Mortality

I added Solael’s Decimation to the OP (somewhere in the middle) with my thoughts.

Also +1 to everything. Thanks for making this great thread.

I do want to chip in an old favourite of mine:

Bysmiel’s Domination: (ignoring pet aspect because I don’t play pet builds) I love the proc on this relic (flat damage should be updated though) but the stats are weak relative to other options so I only use it for levelling. Like Oblivion it lacks +skill which is the major shortfall, so it either needs +skill or other stats to be more of an option.

Annihilation is very underwhelming and it costs a large amount of energy too. It deals as much as ~2 melee hits and the damage rating is similar to lvl 22 doom bolt (we all know doom bolt is weak and anni doesn’t get the double damage to primary target aspect either…). For a 6.5 second cd, and with no option for item mod to boost the damage, it ends up being bad.

ADG please stop making these threads I am tempted to abandon the real world in favor of replaying the game just to test out stuff :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Jokes aside -

  1. Salvation

Can’t comment without testing it personally but I can see a higher a activation chance is mandatory here as the lack of plus skills means the relic makes it rather unattractive.

  1. Annihilation -

[spoiler]Pros-
-Granted Skill isn’t half bad
-Spirit and Cunning Bonuses
-Flat Fire Damage bonus

Cons-
-Falls short when being compared to Korvaak’s Deception and Ulzuin’s Pyroclasm

Proposed Changes-

  • 6-7% total speed making it useful for auto-attackers or % weapon damage casters
    -8-10% Reduced Energy Cost
  • Reducing the CD on the skill to roughly 3-3.5 Seconds. It’s really not that OP endgame to warrant such a high CD atm. A lower CD might give some poor soul some initiative to use it as a nuke.[/spoiler]
  1. Scourge

[spoiler]I personally find Scourge’s Skill to be quite attractive the damage output is pretty good. The skills stats could definitely use a buff but I would say that a lower CD on the skill would give more incentive for players to build around it.

I used it on some builds in MC back in AoM, while not being great in crucible the performance against MC nemesis was fairly decent back then. But a lower CD might help, I know you feel like it might interrupt the auto-attack and WPS but imo Scourge users who want to build around the skill would benefit from it. [/spoiler]

  1. Blademaster’s Talisman

[spoiler]Agree with 100% of what you said.

Also at the cost of sounding greedy I would prefer if they increase the %OA by 1% and the flat OA by flat 8 OA. A small buff that might help builds even more[/spoiler]

  1. Necrosis

[spoiler]Personally would want to see this one re-designed. Even back in Vanilla I sometimes preferred using Haunt (pre-nerf) over this relic.As for Elemental Resistance, you are correct Ignaffar beats it hands down even on non-Inquisitor builds.

I am not sure why the relic has Flat Vitality Support in stats but lacks any Vitality RR. It’s unclear what the relic intends to do as a whole. I don’t recall it ever being picked for stats even back in the base game, most people used it for the RR now even that’s not required.

Redesigning it to something else might help. [/spoiler]

  1. Oblivion

[spoiler]Going to be perfectly honest with this one. This relic is in a odd place, it looks good to me but when I use it on a build I usually end up replacing it with some other relic.
This relic seems to be an odd ball it seems to have good stats that other chaos relics should have had.
-For instance similar to Agrivix’s malice we should have had an Occultist/Inquisitor/Demo relic with Chthonian Racial Damage but for some reason it was placed on this relic.
-Similar to the Necro relic Impurity’s flat aether damage, there should’ve been flat Chaos Damage placed on some Occultist relic but it is found on this relic
-The fumble chances/impaired aim chance on that skill seem solid and I’d say a lot of melee builds would kill for those and yet it was placed on a relic that not many builds can use
So my point is the biggest problem with this relic is that it’s hogging the stats of other relics and doesn’t have much reason to exist.

I could be wrong about Oblivion though and maybe it does have some use on builds. But I personally cannot see any at the same time despite considering it a “not so bad” relic I can’t think of any fixes. So I leave this one up-to the community [/spoiler]

  1. Solael’s Decimation

[spoiler]I won’t crucify you but I personally don’t agree with anything besides Ceno’s suggestion and your suggestion for Chaos Retaliation.
I personally think we have room for both.

I do agree with the assessment that it’s a budget Eldritch Pact.[/spoiler]

  1. Korvaak’s Deception

Agreed 100%

  1. Azrakaa’s Epoch

[spoiler]Haven’t tried it but I agree with your suggestions completely. I personally would say all of them should be implemented as the current relic is not attractive at all.

I also would like to change the 80% Internal Trauma Damage to 80% Bleeding Damage to add some extra support to Pierce\Bleed playstyle. Also would want to see the Physical Damage component of the Sand Devils be reduced if not removed outright and compensated with additional Piercing Damage.

I am saying this because I’ve been bitching about Pierce support for a long time and this relic can be considered a good candidate for it. Maybe it won’t be useful in the endgame but even if it is good enough for the MC nemesis and rogue dungeons then I’d say it’s a good relic[/spoiler]

  1. Malediction and Meditation -

[spoiler]Problem (imo)-
I haven’t tried the latter tbh but at the risk of sounding arrogant for this particular case I don’t feel like I need to cause I can see why most prefer it over Malediction.

I think the problem is obvious that they are both Acid\Poison Support relics. But I also think that Meditation having both Acid and Vitality support is adding to the problem.

Proposed Changes-
Turning one relic into a Vitality\Decay Support relic and the other into a dedicated Acid\Posion Support relic would help solve this problem.
This also helps Vitality Decay get more options in gearing. This also shouldn’t affect too many builds.

The challenge however is deciding which one becomes the Decay Relic and which one should be turned into the Poison Relic[/spoiler]

  1. Uroboruuk’s Raping

[spoiler]Not sure if this needs a buff tbh. I once wanted the weapon lock to be removed from the granted skill so that Decay builds making use of Galgabor can use it.

As for aether necromancer support, I’d much rather see Impurity Buffed[/spoiler]

12.Impurity

Proposed Changes-

  • Add %Damage to Undead, it’s a small bonus that helps.
  • Reduce the CD on the granted skill to 1.5 Seconds to make the proc more reliable. Adjust the values of the skill if required.
  • Bump the %Aether Damage by 25% more damage and increase the flat Aether Damage by 8 more Aether Damage[/spoiler]
  1. Vengeance -

[spoiler]Pros-
-Stat wise the relic can give you a boner. Solid in defenses, no complaints

Cons-
-Skill is very, very bad and has zero practical use

Proposed Changes-
-Change activation to “20% On-Hit” (I assume this means ranged attacks would make it proc as well, cause that is what I want)
-Replace “%Chance to Slow Target” with “Freeze Target for 1-1.5 seconds”
-Reduce CD to 1 second (Reduce damage to compensate)[/spoiler]

My Personal Suggestions -

1.Nemesis -

[spoiler]Pros-
-Racial Damage to our Notched Bone Brothers:)
-Total Speed
-Flat Cunning
-Flat Cold Damage

Cons-
-Granted Skill is very underwhelming

Proposed Changes-
-Nemesis Pet should apply stackable -10% Cold/Pierce RR with its attacks

  1. Yugol’s Hunger

[spoiler]Looks like a shittier EoR to me personally. I haven’t tested it but seeing as how we are getting Acid EoR in one of the upcoming sets I don’t see why anyone would go for this. The relic stats also are only marginally better than Scourge with the skill itself looking rather underwhelming.

As of right now all i can say is changing the Granted Skill to a Black AAR like Beam that procs projectiles when it connects with the enemy would be better imo. The below is what I propose. To add to the uniqueness I want it to spawn projectiles like Fire Strike upon connecting with the enemy

Yugol’s Hunger

“A voracity unmatched in all creation.”

16 Cold Damage
16 Acid Damage
6% of Attack Damage converted to Health
+135% Cold Damage
+135% Acid Damage
+135% Frostburn Damage
+135% Poison Damage
+15% Energy
-10% Skill Energy Cost
+10% Casting Speed

Yugol’s Hunger (Granted by Item)

Focus your fury into a black beam of voracious power that consumes the lifeblood of all near you for as long as you channel the effect. This is a channeled skill and must be held down to maintain. At 100% Cast Speed, Yugol’s Hunger deals damage and drains Energy every 0.3s. The beam spouts additional charges to upon connecting with the enemy.

316.7 Energy Cost per Second
0.3 Second Skill Recharge
15% Weapon Damage
156-200 Acid Damage
156-200 Cold Damage
350 Poison Damage over 2 Seconds
350 Frostburn Damage over 2 Seconds
+50% Crit Damage
8% of Attack Damage converted to Health

[/spoiler]

On a side note how are Ulzuin’s Pyroclasm and Belgothian’s Carnage doing these days in endgame. I personally feel like they could use a little stat upgrade. But can’t comment for certain w/o testing them on the field.

Well, it’s kinda obvious, that level 90 relics are more powerful, than level 60-70 ones. Its like comparing a level 60 gear to level 90 one.
The only difference is that for each level 60-75 item there are level 90 counterpart, that is stricly better (“Mythical” or so).
Asking for level 60 gear to be on par with level 90 one is SILLY! Consider it a “leveling gear” or so. So i dont agree with your opinion about most of those relics. Level 60-70 ones arent supposed to be real “endgame gear”, and if they get outclassed by level 90 ones (like Doom outclases Oleron’s Wrath), it’s completely normal.

Of course, some level 60 relics are still BIS for certain builds, because they dont have a “strictly better” lvl90 counterpart. If there was one, no one would use those too.

LOL

After the next patch you should come back and test things :). It’s gonna be great fun! Life is for suckers. GD is all. I’ll simply address where you disagreed

Scourge - Fair enough. I only tried it out on two builds and just found it lacking as described. I don’t particularly care how it’s addressed so long as that granted skill is improved some.

Oblivion - I think you’re correct that it could be a little further down on my list, but I find it’s edged out. In my notes for it I didn’t mean to apply it should get all of my suggestions at once. I think faction dmg to humans and a bit of a dmg bump would be sufficient, it doesn’t need the DA. I just like me some DA.

Solael’s Decimation - That’s why I gave multiple options, I don’t really care what happens so long as it becomes more distinct than a budget eldritch pact. Ceno’s suggestion and the idea for chaos retaliation are things I heard after I already posted and I agree, I like them better.

Malediction - You’re partially right, but there may also be some bias toward meditation because Oathkeeper pairs so well with poison builds, so the “top acid/poison builds” often end up with Oathkeeper. The vitality dmg factors in too. Maybe it’s best to abandon suggestions and let Z ponder over the Malediction v Meditation problem.

Uroboruuk’s Reaping - That’s why it’s further down on the list ;). I will look into Uroboruuk Reaping vs. Agrivix’s Malice more deeply at some later date.

Impurity - I added your suggestions to the OP since I don’t have ideas for it and don’t want to think about it.

Nemesis - If the pet had to get an RR aura I rather it be -5% cold 8% pierce, or even just -8% pierce. I think cold has enough going for it these days.

Yugol’s hunger - It IS worse EoR, but EoR over-performs because of how it lets you kite and hit a bajillion times per second so crazy lifesteal. So I don’t mind it being a worse EoR. I only have 1 build with it so I didn’t include it because I don’t have enough in-game experience with it to see how it’s doing on a broader range of tests. It’d be great if you did test it out more.

Ulzuin’s Pyroclasm - Last I checked it was “fine enough” but I haven’t done enough with it. Demo relics also have a bit of the “overlap” issue.

Belgothian’s Carnage - I was actually hyper conflicted about whether to bring this one up on the list at all because balancing CDR stuff scares me. What if you made the cooldown reduction 1.5s instead of 1s. What if you instead lowered the proc cooldown from 4.5s to 4s? This makes me nervous. Superfluff could probably comment more on it than I but last time I used it, it felt “fun” which was enough for me I guess. Unsure how it stacks up in the end-game.

Chances are some defensive addition to its stats could also do the trick if Z worries the proc is too dangerous to buff. Of course all this assuming it needs buffing at all.

You’re making the assumption that your view of relics is more correct than mine just because you think it looks more reasonable.
I’m not convinced it’s as simple as: “Bigger number level requirement! Enough said!”

Originally when there were just lvl 60 and 70 relics, they were supposed to be pretty interchangeable. I also think there is evidence against your point given that some of the level 60/70 relics see plenty of end-game use still. The level 90 relics were not designed to be significantly superior so much as to open up more possibilities.

Well I won’t argue with you about it, but again just know that the goal is not to make the 60/70 relics better or equal to the level 90’s (ha!) so much as make them fulfill different roles. We can agree to disagree but I still think it’s a better Grim Dawn when the level 90 relics aren’t always just direct replacements.