Retaliation nerf to Aegis conduit still feels like too much

[mad_lee]

Builds that I tested: Sentinel, Level 100 (GD 1.2.0.3) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator and Archon, Level 100 (GD 1.2.0.3) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

Encounter with resistant mage bosses last forever. SR 75-76 clear timer went up quite a bit due Conduit nerf AND Sunder increase making impossible to tank some of the boss combos more than in couples.

I suggest fully reverting the nerf.

Moreover I think retal damage in general needs help. Legendary retaliation sets haven’t been looked at in forever. If you play them like you are supposed to your damage numbers will be shockingly bad (except for Stoneguard that can still produce like mediocre single target damage output), like Dawnguard or trying to play Sentinel of the Three thru Vire’s Might (or what does even Witchblade suppose to do with it).

I’ve noticed that since 1.2 direct retaliation damage is working half of the time for me. Like melee bosses sometimes somehow don’t get hit by it. Or maybe it triggers less. All in all it feels much less effective for me, maybe someone had similiar (or opposite) experience?

[KingRed_424]

Fisrt of all, I’m a super retal fan and I appreciate your effort of asking for retal buffs.

Second, personally I agree with fully reverting the nerf.

Then let’s get to the off-title things.

@mad_lee

I’ve noticed that since 1.2 direct retaliation damage is working half of the time for me. Like melee bosses sometimes somehow don’t get hit by it. Or maybe it triggers less. All in all it feels much less effective for me, maybe someone had similiar (or opposite) experience?

I, personally, played over 200 hours on retal builds since 1.2, but I’m not obviously feeling that.

@mad_lee

retaliation sets

Stoneguard WL is in a healthy condition, I’m satisfied with its damage at this moment, taking its tankiness into consideration.

Sentinel of the Three, it’s probably only used on Acid Aegis and some other just-for-fun builds (your and my acid RtA blitz). Playing acid RtA RF is kinda stupid, because once we meet Slazar, Aetherglare(don’t konw if I spell this right), the fight will have no end. Acid RtA blitz&Vire’s Might is funny without enough strength, leave it for fun and only for fun, I suggest.

Dawnseeker is used in some mixed fire&lightning retal builds, not in a full set form but 2-piece. Full-set Dawnseeker Warder is not too bad. It’s just not that fast but it’s still tanky.

Dawnguard is very good for lightning RtA Grasping Vines. You can also build a lightning RtA Grasping Vines+Aegis variety. Though they’re not as good as before, it’s Aegis Conduit’s and Bramblevine’s problem, not the set’s.

Despite some meaningless freak (RtA Callidor for example), personally I’m quite ok with retaliation now, as long as Zantai reverts those inexplicable retal changes (Crest of Winter Fortitude has been reverted. The other one is Chains of Anguish).

At last I’ll show you 2 examples built by me. They are good at dealling damage but not so tanky as traditional retal builds. I think it’s in some aspect fair.
Fire&Lighting RtA FoI Purifier:

Purifier, Level 100 (GD 1.2.0.3) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

Grim Dawn 1.2.0.3 - Fire&Lighting RtA FoI Purifier 5-in-row SR75-76

5:29, 5:43, 5:07, 4:49, 5:08
Good damage. Low mobility. Moderate tankiness.

Fire&Lighting RtA BWC Pyromancer:

Pyromancer, Level 100 (GD 1.2.0.3) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator

Grim Dawn 1.2.0.3 - Fire&Lighting RtA BWC Pyromancer 3-in-row SR75-76

4:36, 4:50, 4:33
Very good damage. Low mobility. Mediocre tankiness.

[mad_lee]

@KingRed_424

I appreciate your effort of asking for retal buffs.

Fighting tooth and nail!

@KingRed_424

Stoneguard WL is in a healthy condition

Last time I tried it it was okay. Good single target tankiness but overall pretty mid as far as melees go.

@KingRed_424

Dawnseeker is used in some mixed fire&lightning retal builds, not in a full set form but 2-piece

I know because full set is pretty bad in terms of speed.

@KingRed_424

Dawnguard is very good for lightning RtA Grasping Vines.

We even had in our top20 along with Acid version. Kinda fell off unfortunately.

@KingRed_424

Fire&Lighting RtA FoI Purifier:

That one looks pretty strong on video

@KingRed_424

Fire&Lighting RtA BWC Pyromancer:

I did a Shieldbreaker like that, it was decent but still not top tier.

[KingRed_424]

@mad_lee

I did a Shieldbreaker like that, it was decent but still not top tier.

I’d like to know your Shieldbreaker please!

Pyromancer is another logic:
Though RtA Sigil of Comsuption is not of real high damage, it leeches a lot of health, covering BWC’s shortage of health recovery. This makes the build able to play in facetank style.

Do you remember what helped RtA Grasping Vine once make it top builds? 5% ADctH modifier on the shield. It’s the same logic here.

[mad_lee]

@KingRed_424

I’d like to know your Shieldbreaker please!

[1.2.0.3] Aegis of Retirement: 4:30 Crucible Gladiator 150-170, Shard 90, Celestials, tanky Lightning retaliation caster Archon + couple of bonus retaliation builds by mad_lee

[изображение] *True retirement is just around the corner **Credit for the picture goes to Connor on Pinterest Foreword Ah yes, Aegis of Menhir, you always come back. Just like my love for making and min-maxing builds - pulling me right out of retirement. Although the real reason to break my retirement was a builders community project codenamed “Top20 builds” and dedicated to finding and ranking top (~20-30) strongest builds in Grim Dawn. Keep your eyes peeled to the classes and builds sectio…

at the bottom of the first post. But I haven’t updated it in forever.

[KingRed_424]

@tqFan

March 20

Table of Contents
Itemization

• Faction Equipment
• Relics
• Monster Infrequents
• Epic Items
• Legendary Non-Set Items
• Legendary Set Items

Class & Skills

• Devotion
• Soldier
• Demolitionist
• Occultist
• Nightblade
• Arcanist
• Shaman
• Necromancer
• Oathkeeper

V1.2.1.0

[Itemization]

• Component - Kilrian’s Shattered Soul: added 5% Cast Speed and 10% Bleed Resist, removed % Damage
• Component - Unholy Inscription: added 3%5% Attack damage Converted to Health and removed % Vitality damage

Back to Table of Contents

Faction Equipment

• Consumable prices have been normalized across all factions.

Back to Table of Contents

Relics

• Conflagration: increased thickness of the granted skill’s beam by 20%25%, effectively increasingly the area it targets
• Endurance: increased Health to 620added 120 Armor and removed % Physical Resist
• Meditation: increased Defensive Ability to 60

Back to Table of Contents

Monster Infrequents

• Crimson’s Arcane Scepter: increased % Fire dealt as Lightning modifier for Albrecht’s Aether Ray to 100% and removed its % Aether dealt as Lightning modifier
• Fleshwarped Tome: replaced % Crit damage with % Health. Increased Aether damage modifier for Albrecht’s Aether Ray to 66 and its Conversion modifier to 50%100%.
• Korvaak’s Storm-Blade: reduced % Attack damage Converted to Health modifier for Stun Jacks to 4%
• Ulraprax’s Sting: reduced % Attack damage Converted to Health modifier for Stun Jacks to 3%
• Voldrak’s Crusher: increased % Weapon damage modifier for Cadence to 70%

Back to Table of Contents

Epic Items

• Mythical Ruby of Elemental Balance: removed Fire damage
• Mythical Sapphire of Elemental Balance: removed Cold damage

Back to Table of Contents

Legendary Non-Set Items

• Conduit of Arcane Whispers: increased Cold damage modifier for Cold variant of Albrecht’s Aether Ray to 160
• Conduit of Divine Whispers: increased % Retaliation Damage Modified penalty modifier for Pierce variant of Aegis of Menhir to -50%. Reduced Cold damage modifier for cold variant of Righteous Fervor to 25.
• Conduit of Night Whispers: reduced % Resist Reduction modifiers for Veil of Shadows to -10%
• Mythical Chillflame Evoker: reduced % Cold Resist Reduction modifier for Thermite Mines to -8% and increased % Damage Reduction modifier for Olexra’s Flash Freeze to 16%
• Mythical Doombringer: reduced % Weapon damage modifiers for Feral Hunger and Smite to 30%
• Mythical Exterminus: added 100% of Physical dealt as Fire modifier for Fire Strike
• Mythical Iceskorn Talons: reduced Cold damage modifier for Righteous Fervor to 10
• Mythical Rotdrinker Crest: reduced Cooldown Reduction modifier for Summon Blight Fiend to -2s
• Mythical Stormseer Sapphire: increased Lightning damage modifier for Albrecht’s Aether Ray to 32-122 and removed its % Fire dealt as Cold modifier
• Mythical Tome of the Arcane Wastes: increased thickness of the granted skill’s beam by 20%25%, effectively increasingly the area it targets
• Tome of the Arcane Wastes: increased thickness of the granted skill’s beam by 20%25%, effectively increasingly the area it targets
• Voidspire: reduced Chaos damage to 11-22

Back to Table of Contents

Legendary Set Items

• Beastcaller’s Cowl: granted skill is now a proc
• Belgothian’s Slaughter Set: reduced % Weapon damage on the granted skill
• Darkblaze Incinerator: reduced % Weapon damage on the granted skill
• Ghol’s Malice Set: increased Poison damage bonus for pets to 40 / 5s
• Ghol’s Reach: increased Acid damage for pets to 12. Summoned pets now have resists consistent with other similar pets.
• Korba’s Fury Set: replaced % Physical Resist bonus with 14% Health bonus. Reduced Cold damage modifier for Savagery to 36.
• Mythical Warborn Chestguard: increased bonus to Deadly Momentum to +3
• Mythical Warborn Gavel: replaced modifier for War Cry with 45% Weapon damage modifier for Cadence and added +2 Targets modifier for Reaping Strike
• Nature’s Avenger Set: reduced % Health Regeneration bonus to 30%. Reduced % Health Regeneration on the skill proc to 150%160% and removed the % Physical Resist to 8%.
• Avenger’s Armor: increased % Physical Resist to 4%
• Avenger’s Crusher: reduced % Weapon damage modifier for Upheaval to 70%
• Avenger’s Pauldrons: increased % Physical Resist to 4%
• Mythical Beastcaller’s Cowl: granted skill is now a proc
• Sacred Harmony Set: reduced % Weapon damage modifier for Fire Strike to 10%
• Sentinel of the Three Set: reduced % Physical Resist bonus to 14% and reduced Acid Retaliation bonus to 1600
• Judgment of the Three: increased Acid Retaliation to 450
• The Vileblade Pact Set: replaced % Physical Resist bonus with 8% Health60 Defensive Ability bonus

Back to Table of Contents

[Class & Skills]

Devotion

• Wayward Soul: increased Armor scaling with rank

Soldier

• Blade Arc: increased % Weapon damage scaling at ultimate ranks, to 225% by max ultimate rank, and increased Bleed damage scaling with rank
• Cadence: increased % Weapon damage scaling with rank to 430% by rank 16, 550% by max ultimate rank
• Deadly Momentum: increased Physical damage and % Damage scaling with rank

Demolitionist

• Fire Strike: increased % Weapon damage scaling with rank to 133% by rank 12, 148% by max ultimate rank

• Searing Strike: reduced % Damage Modifier to 10%

• Ulzuin’s Chosen: added % Retaliation Damage modifier scaling with rank (Forgotten Gods only)

Occultist

• Infernal Breath: increased % Damage Reduction scaling with rank to 18% by rank 12, 28% by max ultimate rank
• Mend Flesh: now heals for an initial % Health amount, and then additional % Health per second for the duration of the buff. Mend Flesh duration now scales with rank. Flat Heal removed.

Nightblade

• Shadow Dance: reduced Defensive Ability scaling with rank to 136 by rank 12, 246 by max ultimate rank

Arcanist

• Albrecht’s Aether Ray: increased thickness of the beam by 20%25%, effectively increasingly the area it targets. Increased Fire damage scaling rank.

Shaman

• Conjure Primal Spirit: increased % Pet Attack damage dealt by the primal spirit’s special attacks

Necromancer

• Blight Burst: increased Poison damage scaling with rank
• Rotting Fumes: increased base Radius by 0.5. Fumble now scales with rank, to 25% by rank 12, 35% by max ultimate rank.
• Unstable Anomaly: increased Cooldown Reduction to -13s

Oathkeeper

• Eye of Reckoning: increased % Weapon damage scaling with rank to 30% by rank 12, 41% by max ultimate rank
• Soulfire: increased Physical damage scaling with rank

According to the latest Changelog Monitor March 20, Zantai seems not to listen our feedbacks on retal things at all. Aegis conduit is not dialed back. Neither was the retal penalty on Chains of Anguish. Sentinel of the Three set even got a slight nerf. I don’t know what’s the matter with him. I think we’ve provided enough evidence that these nerfs should not be there.

@Zantai

Based on…?

So I’m gonna ask one thing: @Zantai What are these nerfs BASED ON?

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@KingRed_424

What are these nerfs BASED ON?

[KingRed_424]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

Buff&nerf lottery draw.
Lmao.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

actual reply from Z on the discord btw

[mad_lee]

@KingRed_424

According to the latest Changelog Monitor March 20, Zantai seems not to listen our feedbacks on retal things at all. Aegis conduit is not dialed back. Neither was the retal penalty on Chains of Anguish. Sentinel of the Three set even got a slight nerf. I don’t know what’s the matter with him. I think we’ve provided enough evidence that these nerfs should not be there.

Sentinel of the Three deserved a nerf. I am not sure not having retal penalty on chains won’t make them a bit too good for retal.

I agree that Conduit should be dialed back.

[KingRed_424]

@mad_lee

I am not sure not having retal penalty on chains won’t make them a bit too good for retal.

I’ve tested it on non-set Physical Retal WL, and result is that Chains of Anguish don’t grant extra damage benefit (v1.2.0.5, when the penalty is -25% retal damage rather than total retal damage modified by -25%). I sincerely invite you to read my topic there, watch my videos, and leave some comments, please.

Stoneguard is impossible because the set has already taken the belt place. I don’t think fire or lightning retal needs a test because there are M Sash of the Immortal Sage and M Ulzuin’s Torment, which you can see grant more damage at first sight. Acid retal may needs some tests, if Z thinks my existing tests are not enough to convince him. (Or maybe it’s just Z doesn’t want to admit that the penalty is wrong?)