Retaliation Warlord - 100% block

[malawiglenn]

Here’s a tweaked version of this build https://www.grimtools.com/calc/a2E89GJN others can probably do better but it should be an improvement.

Why 13/12 Squad tactics?

[ya1]

They compare very well. They have consistent moderate damage with huge surprising spikes here and there. This is how they feel different. Like if Shattering smash crits in this case cause it’s also modded with even more retal. Or Honor relic shirgun 33% retal x5 will bring big bois to their knees close up

I’m interested from the point of view of the new FG meta. If retal-added builds have a decent autoattack dmg, crazy dmg spikes, melt melee enemies even faster and most importantly have the huge advantage of a shield and a tanky armor then what’s the reason not to play them? Why would anyone play classic Savagery Warder/Warborn Cadence kinda tanks? I don’t know if you get my meaning…

[thejabrixone]

% Retal is added to attack and can crit and lifesteal as well.

% retal added to attack will only lifesteal if the skill has WD, right? Just want to confirm.

Proificient melee enemies will go down faster ofc. Guys like Fabius evaporate

Yeah, I can’t wait to make reaper and other celestial to be my playthings!

BTW, it’s a shame that pet didn’t get this new mechanics also…
Well, maybe they could taste it a bit if devo procs that have %retal to attack is bound to pet, but still…

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

[Feralwarlord]

Why 13/12 Squad tactics?

Good catch, while the attack speed is nice the points would be better spent elsewhere. And I didn’t notice cause it’s usually beneficial to max out /facepalm

[malawiglenn]

Good catch, while the attack speed is nice the points would be better spent elsewhere. And I didn’t notice cause it’s usually beneficial to max out /facepalm

I mean you do not get more AS from 13/12 compared to 12/12 squad

[Superfluff]

I’m interested from the point of view of the new FG meta. If retal-added builds have a decent autoattack dmg, crazy dmg spikes, melt melee enemies even faster and most importantly have the huge advantage of a shield and a tanky armor then what’s the reason not to play them? Why would anyone play classic Savagery Warder/Warborn Cadence kinda tanks? I don’t know if you get my meaning…

I was trying to explain that there is a difference in performance and feel not hyperbolize their awesomeness:D

They have very low AS and yet have moments of shine when things align and all the buffs are on and when not, consistent and fairly moderate damage. With Warlord you kill some enemies faster than others also. A small ranged tearged like Alkes who also does not proc your block devotions a lot takes more to kill. It’s pretty balanced. A very good AA build will melt things faster. My fire RF Shieldbreaker for example is quite faster in SR in high shards than my Warlord, just not as tanky.

% retal added to attack will only lifesteal if the skill has WD, right? Just want to confirm.

Indeed, You won’t be stealing life with heart of wrath for example. But Aegis, RF, DEE, CS, Savagery etc. yes

[USER_NAME_01]

You are not correct unless you want to deliberately gimp your build and simply don’t accept the retal is different now then force yourself to play vanilla retal.

Retal dmg to attack is everywhere now for every class one way or another in skills, mods. You only have to ignore everything to be correct. It’s like saying I don’t need damage if i don’t swing my weapon

I’ll quote this because it contains the end of the whole conversation.

I do believe OA matters in FG, if it comes to retaliation, because if your skill has Retal >> attack, you have 1500 OA, and you hit something, normal skill would miss, and as retal >> attack is not a separate skill, but a part of it, it still can miss. You’re doing a regular hit, as you’d be a normal, non-retaliation build.
And I do believe our Fluffy friend is right.

[MatMB]

I’m interested from the point of view of the new FG meta. If retal-added builds have a decent autoattack dmg, crazy dmg spikes, melt melee enemies even faster and most importantly have the huge advantage of a shield and a tanky armor then what’s the reason not to play them? Why would anyone play classic Savagery Warder/Warborn Cadence kinda tanks? I don’t know if you get my meaning…

i’ve theorycrafted a few reta builds (which is not the same than tested it ofc) and i admit the numbers look sick, especially physical.

i won’t be suprised if reta to attack became meta at release, and thus i won’t be suprised if it was slighty nerfed shortly after (stoneguard in particular). that said it’s a new mechanism so i’m happy it’s powerful.

[ya1]

i’ve theorycrafted a few reta builds (which is not the same than tested it ofc) and i admit the numbers look sick, especially physical.

i won’t be suprised if reta to attack became meta at release, and thus i won’t be suprised if it was slighty nerfed shortly after (stoneguard in particular). that said it’s a new mechanism so i’m happy it’s powerful.

I tried to theorycraft retal back in 1.6 and it was not possible due to the duality of phys<->pierce. Now that’s fixed and the new mechanic seems to be adding exactly what was needed. Can’t wait to check it out but I’m still a bit sore about all the nerfs to glass cannon playstyle (which was my fave) - and hearing some of the community members calling out for more - so I’m a bit prejudiced against giving tanks more guns.

@Fluff

What’s better, acid Sentinel or phys Warlord/Oppressor? (talking retal)

[Superfluff]

i’ve theorycrafted a few reta builds (which is not the same than tested it ofc) and i admit the numbers look sick, especially physical.

i won’t be suprised if reta to attack became meta at release, and thus i won’t be suprised if it was slighty nerfed shortly after (stoneguard in particular). that said it’s a new mechanism so i’m happy it’s powerful.

It might be tweaked a bit after launch but nothing dramatic, who knows, we’ll see. I after all the feedback I didn’t expect Z to go all in and turn so many sources of pierce retal into phys retal. Thornhides and Messenger of war in particular changed some things

@Fluff

What’s better, acid Sentinel or phys Warlord/Oppressor? (talking retal)

I can vouch for Acid Aegis sentinel Class being very good and fun with it’s pinball AoE. However Warlord is very durable and dishes out great dmg too. I’d do Warlord over Opressor with stoneguard. Besides durability you have so many retal sources in Soldier especially CS that gives you AoE

I guess aegis has the advantage of mid range but it could use a bit more DA in my opinion

[ArcticForPolar]

I have a couple of questions regarding new retaliation, and since my first build will be warlord (ret btw), i figured I’ll post them here.

1. How powerfull is Vire’s Cascade from Honor relic truly is? I guess it’s the best choice for block oriented warlord but can it shotgun? Can’t quite figure out it from the relics description.

2. How does judgment exactly work? I read somewhere that it will affect enemies in a way vaal cyclone in PoE works: pulls mobs close to you, but from the gif I saw on this forum I can’t say it works that way. Anyway it seems like a great AoE DA shread ability

3. How important DA will be lategame for block based retaliation build? Even though you have now several abilities to do direct damage I really want to emphasize on on hit/on block abilities with added retaliation damage like targo’s/boar/counterstrike. I don’t mind to be hit but don’t like incoming crits so how fine I will be with aprox. 2500 DA? I will post GT link 2 posts later.

So here is my version:https://www.grimtools.com/calc/D2p4q7e2

[Khaop]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Some of it is relevant, other i feel is not so relevant for reasons i’m about to write.

Yes, low OA gimps damage, but it is far less than people suggest. Hardly anyone got a clue how the damage really turns out. Let me show you a spreadsheet i’ve made some time ago with OA. Not sure if they made any adjustments to OA formula since malmouth.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQRd8aIik7Z7udDCgp2ENM_XurZwcTlNDg0YJVvIP4x4Mtj2QP4UVmf_Yu3R8CgloctewdtqNcjBiwo/pubhtml?gid=68742716&single=true

From thread:
http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56478

Now, it’s been some time since i played grim dawn so i can’t remember what normal monster DA is - so for now i just assume its around 2450.

If you then look at the spreadsheet you will find that the difference between some 1900 OA and roughly 3100 OA with 80% crit damage is a bit over 61% increase in damage of the rigtheous fervor(RF). This is from taking all of devotions and most of your gear to focus yourself that hard into crit and only get that low damage increase back.

If you then compare some 1900 OA to 2400 OA it gets more meaningful, you get around 21% more damage. But it’s gonna take a chunk of your defenses to get that. When i give this build another lookover sometime i can probably fit in a bit more OA, but remember this is a retal build more than an RF build, fervor is not the 100% source of damage.

Now let’s look at “lack” of -rr. It’s true, i don’t have so much. However people keep suggesting the damn oathbreaker pet - but honestly the way i view it now i have no need to have a pet run around with an aoe damage aura taking the agro away from me, the retaliater. This is the same logic i avoided all stun devotions, items and skills as well, i want them to hit me. Sadly i had to grab an attack slow since it was just too many sources of that from good items. I also do not think phys damage really needs serious -rr to be good. Maybe i can pick some up from devotions or some item, i’ll have a look at that. There is also the chance that the pet, being invulnerable, does not draw agro in which case i will reconsider to get it, and also i can’t figure out of its a time based summon or permanent pet.

Skills in fervor doesn’t matter it’s said. Since most damage comes from the retal portion. That might just be true, i will consider testing this. However i should note that with increased skill levels comes new charge levels, and i think the charge levels scale retal scaling, no?

As far as ascension goes, i am not particularly impressed the best about it is that damage absorption but i’ve got overguard if i ever need that. but i’ve added it back now until i remove it later should i need respecc into pet rr.

Finally let me remind you again, this is a retal build more than an default attack build. If you wanted to make a rigtheous ferver build there are two items you should consider looking at, they are the helmet and shield which grant retal damage to fervor, they are big considerations.

I am right now doing an update of this build, and i’ve been able to address most of the concerns people had, and some extra concerns i had myself. Will post in a bit when i am done, theorycrafting properly takes its hours.

If anyone made it this far, i am really interested if anyone know the mechanics of the Guardian of Empyrion? Particularly i need to know if it can agro, and if it is summoned on a duration.

[Superfluff]

Charges on RF do not scale with Retal. It’s a separate damage source. Forget the spreadsheet. It’s real world results And Also Crushing Verdict. I have it al lvl 10 or 12. Helps a great deal. remember you have low AS. You have to ensure that each hit matters a lot

Ascension is a major boost to your damage, especially when you have other procs on like messenger of war. You also need the OA there

guardian will hardly aggro and is invulnerable and permanent. It can in some tight spaces body block mobs and that is all

[Khaop]

Okay, so i am done now with v2. I addressed everything anyone mentioned in the process i believe.

Overall the transition has been focused at:

• getting more resist reduction
• getting more offensive ability
• reducing defensive ability(so i get hit more)

To achieve that i did some unusual things. The main thing i did was that i put every single point i didn’t need to equip gear into cunning, this resulted in using 0 points in physique and nearly every point into cunning.

That solved many problems. Gave a serious chunk of offensive ability. Also it prevented me from getting huge defensive ability which made it hard to use retaliation damage. This build still has 100% block chance, and 100% block cooldown reduction with overguard. That in conjunction with huge armor means i pretty much can’t take any damage from anything, therefore health is actually not something i need to stack because… they simply can’t really get through to my health pool.

I also optimized components etc for more offensive power, as well as slightly the devotions. Speaking of devotions, i grapped assassin’s mark which is a proc on crit to -% phys resist. Therefore i needed around 2600-2800 OA to be able to use it against the hard enemies where i need it. Luckily i have achieved that. Sitting on 2549 with ascension up, with an additional -353 from crushing verdict and markovian’s advantage.

With all this and other tinier adjustments i’ve got yea lets just estimate that to around 2700-2900 OA, 2650 DA, 93% lowered phys resist. All this with the infamous 100% block at slightly over 20k health(which i doubt they will threat).

Enjoy,

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/0V0Qod1Z

Will update initial post sometime.

[Khaop]

@Superfluff
First, thanks for giving me the extra info i needed. I just have a couple of things to comment on.

The reason the spreadsheet matters is that you and so many others claim it makes the world of the difference, whereas with the low oa from before i’d be sitting on around 73% chance to hit on bosses or something. This would be okay, it’s not the end of the world especially because things kill themselves on me it’s only really needed on big longer fights where it averages out to some dps, it would suck with lower oa if i had to waste extra hits on every mob before i could land a killing one.

Ascension is a minor damage cooldown. We’re talking maybe 10% and 220 OA fo the 17 points i was able to free up to use on it. I ended up finding it good enough to use it, especially because with assassin mark nature i don’t need 100% uptime on oa buffs for proccing it. Ofc, it gets better the shittier your gear is so i guess it’s really strong on lvling. Also the damage reduction isn’t so good, or it is but it’s not needed when you got so much block it sort of overlaps in usage so the cooldown surely isn’t the end all be all, but i hope it has some nice visuals though.

[Superfluff]

You have 100% block but not useing the block retal devotions like targo and boar. This almost defeats the purpose of the build:p

Use them both. very much worth it. Dmg piles up

[mAdLaX]

Are those new Item? The Headgear and Boots?

[Superfluff]

Are those new Item? The Headgear and Boots?

yes they are

[mAdLaX]

yes they are

From 1.1.0.0 Update or the the upcoming FG Expansion?

[Khaop]

You have 100% block but not useing the block retal devotions like targo and boar. This almost defeats the purpose of the build:p

Use them both. very much worth it. Dmg piles up

Because they stun, even aoe stuns. Can stop monsters from killing themselves on ya. At least that’s my theory, maybe if it turns out to be nice i can incorporate it. The earlier versions i had used it, till i finally got it removed. It’s not like they do the main portion of damage on bosses and if they cause monsters to die slower when i general clear it’s not worth it.