I’ve always failed to understand how shotgunning contributes to gameplay and game balance in a positive way.
exploited by players it brings imbalance followed by otherwise unnecessary nerfs
exploited by mobs and especially heroes and bosses makes shit real
Everyone is aware of the shotgunning potential of some bosses and, God forbid, nemeses. Most of the players have died once, or multiple times, in a split second, staring dumb at the monitor, asking themselves “HOW?!?”.
So, where’s the good reason this mechanic to ever exist? I, personally, find none.
Ofc there’s some rage in this thread, but I really mean it and consider ability to shotgun an issue.
Just got oneshot at 7K HP on elite difficulty, supported block char, overguard lvl 5 active, maivens lvl 2, 9K HP total, 20 chaos res, char lvl 61.
A cultist hero suddenly appeared, shot three thick chaos bolts at me, dropped dead. Wasn’t funny.
Positives: Feels absolutely fantastic when you do it to a boss. Is a perfectly valid tactic for spiking down toughies -turning a crowd-clearing skill into a spike damage skill.
Negatives: It hurts when it’s done to you.
If anything, I don’t see a problem with shotgunning itself - I see a need for more creative spike-damage mitigation skills for players. In most games I’ve played, bosses in particular usually possessed at least one nasty spike-damage skill. There were usually ways to mitigate it. GD just needs a bit more in the way of effective defensive skills for players (and maybe for mobs too?)
yes, shotgunning is a bad mechanic especially when the game supports a hardcore mode.
it’s bad mainly because it punishes melee players way, way more than ranged.
there is a reason why it was almost eliminated from POE (some of it remain, such as AOE overlaps, but overall it’s much better than before)
IMO they should tone it down, just like they should get rid of “valor” shields spawning on certain mobs giving them an invisible and unpredictable 38% reflect damage.
It could simply be a matter of making the shotgunning skill have a longer and more visible animation. So that players can try to figure out when to take a step back.
OK, this I can get behind. Giving nasty shotgunner mobs a “tell” of some sort that gives players a cue to back off would actually be kind of nice. An audio cue, a visual cue, something.
It was already implemented with purple chtonian human boss in Blood Grove (don’t remember his name) and since then I never died to his shotgun, so it’s effective. Some sort of charging animation before attack and also can make attack even stronger so if you miss this hint you’re as good as dead.
I once died in Crucible with a full Markovian tank, maxed resists as I blitz into Zantarin right as he threw his vitality bolts at me…instant death.
I never died like that to zantarin or 3x zantarin ever after that, without kiting him. That means I learned something.
EDIT: If the cultist hero you speak of is the main boss blood grove (forgot his name) he has a shotgun ability with big bolts that does very big damage.
This ability can be telegraphed fairly well because he has a long wind-up animation for it. Having good Chaos and vitality reists also helps a great deal and can be mitigated especially with a tank character. I’'d also take Bulwark over maiven’s if you are not doing a Reckless power/ Shield hybrid type
Shotgunning is fine, it’s only a problem if you have awful resistance like you did. Shotguns spells get cast at a range if you walk/dash into it it’s your problem and it isn’t op on the player end
Getting oneshot by Zantarin isn’t fine. Or by Valdaran. Or the Warden. Or Thalonis. Or… a random hero. Etc.
They got no telegraphed attacks, initial damage is high, further multiplied by the shotgunning and eventual crits.
Well developed characters get oneshot in ultimate at +15K HP, simply because players had no luck with timing, or simply had no luck at all. Like a roulette, nothing to do with players’ reactions or skills.
Any time you die out of a sudden not knowing why, killed by events which nullify current character progression and are realted mainly to the luck factor, isn’t fine.
The worst part is, not every mob with shotgun potential could have telegraphed attacks.
The hero which killed me, was at mid distance. Didn’t charge at him. I’m not even sure if I got hit directly by the chaos bolts, or they exploded infront of me.
20% chaos resist is fine for a 60 char in Elite, without access to black legion/Anasteria goods, where chaos/aether resists are, nor to certain legendaries, which typically improve it. I drink ointments before boss fights.
Basically, getting oneshot out of nowhere isn’t my problem, but on the developers’ side.
To not sound like a dumb apologist, you’d better define why shotgunning is fine. Like, reasons.
Shotgunning by itself is fine because it gives you opportunity to take a risk in closer distance but with higher damage outcome for some skills. If it’s to be replaced then skills like stun jacks and falcon swoop without tuning will become shit. So if they are should be tuned then
1 Make damage of every projectile be equal to summary damage of all projectile “pre nerf” - would be too op cause you will be able to clear screen in 1 second with stun jacks.
2 Make minor changes to projectiles damage - skills become useless due to no single target damage.
3 Make mediocre damage for every projectile - skills are still useless cause still would lack single target damage in comparison with other skills.
The most important damage in late game is single target cause you get tonns of AoE from procs and stuff - enough to kill trash in seconds. And that’s why shotgun is ok for skills that are AoE by their nature, you can come close to target and make it good for single target attack.
It would be much easier solution to make strong attacks of mobs visible and players able to react to them.
Two things . First There^ is your problem. If you replace Elite with Veteran in that sentence then the sentence is true. 20% chaos resist is most certanly not enough in elite especially for a melee character - try 60% at least, with a melee character I usually end up using Voidforged Battle Plate or Fanatics Overcoat in Elite. You also don’t need kymon’s reputation for chaos resist. Devil’s crossing gives 12 Chaos/Aether with Survivor’s Perseverance. And there are other lower tier augments that give chaos reists. At lvl 60 you should have revered reputation with at least one fection to be able to mitigate your overall resistances well.
Second thing. You want reasons as to why shotgunning is ok. It’s as ok as any other mechanic in the game is that might kill you if you don’t know how to mitigate . One dies to it and learns how to mitigate it. I gave the Zantarin example what you understod from that is Zantarin shotguns=no fun and no good, while at the end of my message i wrote that I no longer die to that. Zantarin is easy for both ranged and melee characters, just don’t expect to live if you fight him with low resistances, poor OA/DA and no circuit breaker (and he telegraphs his moves really well adn is very slow when doing it, there are even videos of players dodging those attacks, not that it’s really necessary).
Shotguns mechanics are good because you can use them yourself to dispatch your enemies quickly. If the opposite were true then Falcon swoop, Pyroclasm, Phantasmal Blades, Valdun’s Rifle ability, many weapon procs, Blades of wrath and many other things would just need to dissapear.
The enemies you fight can by no means spam shotgun mechanics the way you can, they are just beefier than you are so in the end it’s balanced and up to the player to mitigate incoming damage and ensuring high enough damage output.
Shotgunning in itself is fine and and interesting mechanic, but we are taking mostly about Zantarin here.
But Zantarin’s shotgun has a low animation and triggers when you are far away from him. You get shotgun if you are rushing from a distance to melee while he is casting.
But others don’t have such limitations, Valdaran shotguns at melee range (and likes to move closer until he sits on top the player litterally) and his animations are hard to decipher imo.
When animations are obvious or the casting pattern si easily recognizable - with a visual aura or effect when the hero/boss might cast - it is up to the player to dodge or be careful.
Otherwise, it gets a bit frustrating.
I wouldn’t mind all bosses to be stronger or all have extremely powerful casts, but those should be visually obvious - even with a crap ton of procs happening (looking at you elemental balance rings/elemental storm/flashbang combos).
All in all, at the moment shotgunning is seldom encountered throughout the game, but the few monsters here and there that could shotgun might benefit from having clearer animations and sounds - as a warning for the attentive players.
Oh, really?
I guess you don’t find any problem that there’s a great disparity between some of the skills you mentioned, and many others which can’t shotgun. That’s why everyone picks falcon swoop over anything else, even if their main skill is completely unrelated to the triggered skill as damage type. Makes sense. That’s what I call balance and it’s perfectly fine.
You know what? Developers also know which skill can shotgun or can be exploited and at the end they nerf it and make it underwhelming. It’s to cure the symptoms, but not the disease. Meanwhile players also exploit it while they can and then cry that it’s nerfed, before the transition to another broken skill to exploit.
Even in the terribly balanced PoE with the worst balance team ever, shotgunning was removed. Go figure.
I’ve built a char with very high HP pool and moderate secondary defenses (good block, some absorption), thus chaos res is sufficient. I killed Bolvar, Zaria, and Karroz without using ointment, there wasn’t a need to. Yes, with the “not enough” 20% chaos res. Obviously the char is defensively ok.
As out of context it may look low, but taking into account the other layers of defenses - perfectly fine.
What I died to, was a random hero and not because defenses are lacking, but to a broken mechanic.
On a side note - if the game has evolved to the point where you need to wear certain items (not fitting your build) to almost max a certain type of resistance to be able to progress at lower difficulties, that’s very concerning. At least for me.
And last - I’m aware that arguing with apologists is a lost cause. Whatever you do, they’ll point out a weakness you were supposed to predict in advance and equip accordingly. They never tackle the real issue, but will do the impossible to find and get into the tyniest flaw and use it in their favor.
Well you clearly have your mind made up about it. You know i had my WTF death moments too. If you want broken shotgun mechanic it’s the Mad Queen Vengence red aura she casts. Although a niche boss, you do encounter her in the crucible. That mechanic is considered broken because she has no cooldwn on it. She can just shower you with that thing and kill you in a split second. the only warning you get is the usually, by the third time she screams, she casts the aura on herself, and if you know you don’t have the “right” gear/build for her, you need to step back. You cannot use shotgun spells on her or spammy skilss/devotions: Fissure, Falcon, Blades o Wrath (unless you kill her really fast), Reckless tempest, Cast vines or cocktail under her etc…Targo’s Hammer may work thanks to Bulwark %damage to life resistance. This I do call objectively broken.
Edit: Apologist…i’ve never been branded with any kind of word before:) I don’t inded to be one. I just spoke from my own experiences.
About the only concession I’ll make here is that shotgunning mobs should have visible/audible tells to help attentive players get out of the way of the blast. Other than that, I see no problem with shotgunning. Git gud hellcat.
20% Chaos resist on Elite is terrible. It doesn’t matter if you have high HP, increasing your resists does far more to mitigate damage than just having high health.
Never fight Valdaran at ranged, he will shotgun you. I actually never once got shotgunned by him, even with my squishy characters.
I only got shotgunned by the Mad Queen twice because i got greedy. She has an attack cycle and you have to pay attention to her roars.
They made Zantarin shotgun attack much more easy to see coming in a recent update. So if you get shotgunned, you deserve it.
