So what IS an ARPG supposed to be about...?

Grim Dawn General Discussion
1

(Can’t think of anyplace else to put this; where’s a general gaming forum when we need it? I’m not convinced the News in Gaming forum is correct for this.)

I got into a slight argument on the Discord about what one should expect for battle length. The opposing side said one should be able to clear a pack of goons in one second flat. I, for one, would expect 10-15 seconds no matter how strong one’s build is. The opposing side was apparently aghast at that. Cue me wondering how you’re supposed to savor one-second battles. (For the record, it started out about the value of crowd control. I was rather hoping this was the sort of game where absolutely everything is relevant…Besides, which is more satisfying, to splat everything immediately, or to cripple them and then go in for the kill? Definitely the latter for me.)

According to the opposing side, though, non-boss enemies aren’t supposed to pose a challenge. Which genuinely threw me for a loop. If non-bosses aren’t supposed to be a challenge, why include them in the first place? As one supporter essentially put it, the game shouldn’t be sleepy with occasional spikes.

Suffice to say I can’t fathom the popularity of speed runs at all…Why would you want the battle against Rashalga to last a mere five seconds? I know it bespeaks power, but no matter what the game/milieu, raw power by itself does nothing for me. I want to win by finesse, not just mere strength. Although I don’t think the opposing side was impressed by my claim that I don’t even want any part of the feeling of mindless slaughter. (Or mindless anything, come to think of it.) I have cut down squadrons quickly with my Savagery Vindicator, mind (currently L65), but I haven’t derived any enjoyment from the quickness.

Which makes me wonder…what is the point of an ARPG supposed to be? I always thought the cornerstone was character customization; I suppose that to put this in Magic: The Gathering demographic terms, I’m a Johnny/Vorthos (i.e. self-expression with heavy lore slants), not a Timmy (favoring raw strength/sheer splendor) and certainly not a Spike (only concerned with what wins the most efficiently). I’m getting worried, though, that the intent is to appeal to a desire for sheer might. Put another way, I don’t agree with the idea that, as Diablo 3 put it, it’s all about the loot. No, I’d say it’s all about the skills; loot just increases your margin of error.

(For the record, I got into the genre through roguelikes; Diablo II may have been real-time, but still a roguelike. Never did get past Nightmare-Act II before my attention flagged elsewhere, though…)

2

“All about the loot” is correct in a way - D3 just gets it completely window-licking wrong. “Loot” isn’t only about dangling the carrot - the loot has to be interactive, not just another +1. Loot is another layer of skill. You figure out how to put the puzzle pieces together just right and all of a sudden an okayish character with one last change becomes magical. Then you push it as hard as you can in whatever way your SC/HC status suggests.

Of course I can’t speak for anyone else. :cool:

3

It’s a single player game so it can be whatever you want it to be.

Of course, due to the huge variety of multiplicative effects, from Offensive Ability critting to damage bonuses to modifiers to resist shred, it is indeed possible to gear up to the point where even Nemesis bosses with millions of HP can die in seconds.

Before then though, when you’re still running around in greens that barely cap your resists while scraping together just enough Offensive Ability on the side to not get a penalty, things go slower. Most players will do an untwinked playthrough and go slow and will most likely not bother with the farming needed to get best in slot endgame gear.

So if you like it for the customization then play it for the customization and take it slow. If you like it for the optimization then go farm or cheat out your full set of lv94 purples and figure out how to squeeze out the next few % of damage without compromising defenses and shave off a second from your Crucible 150-170.

If you’re going for multiplayer with pubs then you’re in the wrong game though. If you want 1 second kills go play Path of Exile. If you want slow and deliberate and really skill based that would probably be Vindictus or Dauntless. But if there’s no other players around, there’s no need to get all caught up about what others think the game should be.

4

It’s certainly going to be mean different things to different people, but a common denominator is generally fast-paced combat.

10-15 second (or even higher) kill times for a pack of fodder enemies is certainly the norm when your gear is average, but being able to eventually overkill and decimate everything is part of the fun many ARPG players look for in this genre; the satisfaction of creating a character that turns what were once threats into paste.

5

We had this discussion in another thread recently. I (and some others) genuinely don’t see why GD even has trash mobs, they’re so trivial and harmless.

The most interesting counter-argument was that they’re actually intended to be ridiculously easy, so that the player might stop paying close attention, have to think for a second about where the key for a health potion/Mirror/other rarely-used defensive ability is, and end up dying when they do run across a tough boss or pack of heroic enemies.

In answer to your title question, I’d say “interesting character builds plus lots of cool loot”. But to the extent that I’m an ARPG player it’s by a side route via Borderlands 2; Diablo and Torchlight never held my attention and I’ve never played any of their sequels.

6

I like arpg the way Grim Dawn is. Though, I also like the slower pace and more cinematic like Dungeon Siege 2.

I would love to play Dark Souls with arpg mechanic. Imagine fighting Ornstein and Smough. :smiley:

7

An ARPG is about saving the world by killing loads of enemies in fast-paced combat for loot and becoming a godlike beeing in the process.

Well thats it for me really. Maybe I have a weird power fetish but then I guess I am not the only one having it. :stuck_out_tongue:

As for the “fast-paced”: I am of the opinion that trash should pose some threat. If theres zero or near-zero threat, gameplay and farming becomes excessively dull and boring. That doesnt mean every encounter should last half a minute because that would kill the core-element of the ARPG itself. But when lesser enemies fly across the screen because some aura or autoproc (you didnt even spec into heavily) kills them as you step near, we are probably bordering the other extreme.

I am not 100% happy with GDs difficulty, difficiulty-progression and difficulty-spikes, but naturally thats a bit of a subjective thing everyone feels different about.

8

I’m in agreement. If 10-15 seconds was expected for a well-geared character, what happens to someone just starting out? Gear comes from enemies, and if even great builds spent 10 seconds killing the lowliest enemy, how is an undergeared build supposed to manage? Spending a minute killing a pack of zombies in wightmire for maybe 1 yellow item would be absolute torture.

I describe an ARPG as consisting of a few ingredients:

  1. Customizable characters. There should be almost limitless ways to make a character playable. GD excels at this more than its competition in my opinion.

  2. Something to work for. This could be that last legendary you’re seeking or that last boss-killing milestone you have yet to complete. GD has some very rare affix combos and very challenging super bosses which ensure that there’s always something to work towards.

  3. Engaging. Even if a game has something to work for, the experience of working to get there must be fun. This is where OPs idea of 10-15 second basic enemy fights falls flat. Alternating between a proper ratio of cutting through trash while watching gibs and ragdolls versus taking on tougher enemies in a test of skill and endurance is the magic formula which determines engagement. Too tedious and exhausting produces high fatigue, while an experience that is too easy produces boredom; both of these factors limit play-time.

  4. Skill-based action gameplay. This was, in my opinion, GDs weakness compared to its competitors. I think that the eventual addition of movement skills will help solve this issue by allowing more active combat and strategic, split-second repositioning capabilities. It should require some degree of reflexes and quick decision-making to play an ARPG, since ARPGs are not just simple strategy games based solely on invisible calculations and dice rolls.

9

I think I was expecting more that a squadron of L100 goons would take the same amount of time to dispatch with legendaries and MIs as a squadron of L20 goons would take with just magics and rares…

Perhaps a bit more to the point, the seeming desire to blaze through combat as quickly as possible sounds like one of two things, neither of which seem auspicious—general impatience, or a dislike of the game’s combat, just wanting to get it done with for the treasure. Either way, how is one supposed to savor the process like that? Since when is victory satisfying by itself, enough to overcome an onerous process? (This reminds me of the apparent overfocus on quick military victories in the Civilization series. Why the blinding rush, if you like the process? Is gaming in general expected to be impatient?!)

10

Ya might savour it for a while, but when the kill count is 10k+ some of the flavour has kinda worn out…
Me thinks the killspeed is also a benchmark tellin ya how well yar build is working, not a feature of game as such.

11

I like to compare GD to PoE cause these are great examples of different approaches to combat.

I played PoE the latest league and got bored very quickly, the builds were nice, league was ok’ish, but what i noticed: i played every day and every day i could hardly recall what i was doing the day before. It was like tedious job for me, like some addiction making me to play while i had no pleasure. And the reason of this, i realised, was nonexistent combat. You just press LMB and poof screen is cleared, then you zoom-zoom with movement skill to the next pack press LMB again and repeat untill you go insane.

No purpose, almost no actions required from player.

Then i thought fuck it let’s check good ol’ GD.

And GD feels so much better combat-wise. Even movement pace which once was too slow compared to others ARPGs now in nice place, not too slow not too fast. Combat feels realy like combat, you need right positioning, skills management (cooldown skills FTW), you don’t evaporate packs in 0.01 second.

So guess i cured my PoE addiction.
With GD addiction. damn.

PS. Some tough mobs may seem too slow to kill with bad builds though, but it only shows that build is bad. I was annoyed a little by fat tree golems i AoM on my 1st playthrough in Veteran but my build sucked, i made some changes and in Elite i got my revenge all right.

12

Legendaries and MIs are legendaries and MIs. They are not the high-level equivalents of magic and rare items.

You don’t seem to enjoy killing things quickly; you like a tough fight every time. I’m glad you enjoy that. Are others allowed to enjoy what they enjoy without being judged deficient in some way when it doesn’t harm you? Powbam has something nearing 10,000 hours played in Grim Dawn but he has still not to my knowledge beaten or tried to beat Ultimate difficulty. Is his personal character lacking for that? People like all sorts of different things.

13

I basically agree with what Zantai said. To me, an ARPG is a game about killing stuff, unleashing your anger on the game (by killing enemies) and finding a strategy to kill a particular boss.

To me, Grim Dawn doesn’t really provide the strategy fight, because it’s easy to me to facetank almost everything with almost every character. I don’t blame the game for that, though, because some other people think the game’s just too hard.

14

I agree with OP, i want combat to be engaging and have a high skill cap.

I like arpgs for the loot hunting, the combat is the weaker part imo.

Just going near a pack of mobs, one shotting it and flying past them gets boring really fast, which is why i usually only play grim dawn for a week until i quit for a few months.

I want to make a mod to change this… Possibly just buff mobs a lot… and nerf players a bit.

My perfect game in my opinion would be dark souls / wow / archeage / pathofexile

Dark souls combat, fun, engaging, difficult and high skill cap

Wow, great and polished general mmo systems, feel, game loop, long term progression

Archeage, world pvp, you are never alone, high competition, infinite gear cap

Path of exile, random loot, map system, currency system

Modding like in grim dawn would be amazing but we all know mmorpgs have a hard time proving any kind of modding. They’d have to release server files for that and then those servers would compete with theirs…

I know a game like this will probably never release so i am waiting for one that’s similar that allows modding. Maybe i get lucky though. One of those asian games might succeed, and we know they love rng items xD

For now i’ll satisfy myself modding games like grim dawn